Why do so many frown upon swapping Chevy engines into Olds?

[jrm81bu]

I should prolly stay out of this one, lol. However i'd like to say that I have and am currently pushing stock sbc block, cranks, rods, pistons, to close to the 500hp mark, nothing is forged, and it's being fed around 7lbs of boost. All this without any machine work either. Not htat I would really recommend everyone to do that but it can be done. I alos put this together for 300+- dollars.

[bill]

Wow....boosted motor for 300.00? would you say that you had a "source" for parts that most of us dont....?

[jrm81bu]

Not really. All the major componets-cam, heads, blower I already had. The only cost was a set of bearings, rings, and gaskets. Fel-pro gaskets, with the only exception was Mr. Gasket head gaskets. Then sealed power rings(cheap ones) and bearings, all off the shelf stuff.

[bill]

I think you missed my point...but its no big deal....

[CHRIS.O]

How do you Olds guys do it cheaper? I am not ripping on Olds, Ive owned 3, rebuilt a 455 and spent more money on the machine work and shortblock that I did on the whole Chevy 355 I just did with Dart Platinum heads. Literally, my whole chevy cost less, I'm talking new tin work, distributor, new heads, water pump, all machine work done to the engine, completely new engine. I rebuilt the shortblock on my Oldsmobile and had more cash into it than that Chevy. If there is a cheaper way PLEASE let me know. I would love to have another 455 built or even a 403, friend put a 403 in a 72 cutlass, it was a good time haha. But anyway please let me know how you guys can do it so cheap, I want to build another Olds.

[bill]

gotta have the right "sources"....

[CHRIS.O]

I guess so. Maybe prices have come down or something. I did my 455 about 6 years ago. I suppose comparing a 455 to a 350 probably isn't a fair comparison anyway.

[jrm81bu]

I think you missed my point...but its no big deal....

I must have. At the time I did not work for any parts stores if that's what you meant. I did make them do a lot of price matching though.

[Evan's 85]

I guess so. Maybe prices have come down or something. I did my 455 about 6 years ago. I suppose comparing a 455 to a 350 probably isn't a fair comparison anyway.

Very True..I think comparing a 455 and 454 price would be better.

When it comes dwn to it, it's either you want something cheap and easy and quick to find parts for or you want something that is more "orginal" but much harder to find stuff for, etc..but, by doing so, one might earn more respect from others and at car shows and such, while doing so keeping the car more brand loyal.

It's all in opinion,I'm more glad that ppl enjoy them and arent scrapping them all than worrying about engines, I'll keep an Olds in mine, you can put your chevys in...its all good lol

[KrisW]

...rebuilt a 455 and spent more money on the machine work and shortblock that I did on the whole Chevy 355 I just did with Dart Platinum heads. Literally, my whole chevy cost less, I'm talking new tin work, distributor, new heads, water pump, all machine work done to the engine, completely new engine. I rebuilt the shortblock on my Oldsmobile and had more cash into it than that Chevy...

There are a few things that need to be addressed here. First off, who did your machine work? How is it even possible that having one engine block machined could be less than another? Its the same labor and machinery to bore cylinders, align bore, and all the rest. It sounds to me like you might have gotten ripped off. Dollar for dollar should be the same cost no matter what block, as long as they are both cast iron V8. That's 8 cylinders bored on the SAME MACHINE. It's the same tools and same labor to measure and cut everything. Please clear this up.

If you have a machine shop telling you that it costs more to do an Olds block than a Chevy, you need an explanation on that. I would not use a machinist who charges different rates based on manufacturer. Never.

And that is the main cost difference. Machining. When I do a chevy small block (every so often I DO build one, but only for other people) the block machine work is what stretches the budget. I strip the engine down in my garage and then get to putting snap gauges and micrometers to everything. Whether it was the two 400 small blocks, a 305 or a 350, if that engine was built before 1987 it needed everything done, according to the math. I am always on a budget as I have said before, and I would never build an engine that was out of tolerance on the block. I might run loose, to the large end of the specs, but never outside the numbers.

Now, for my Buick and Olds builds, when I strip the block down, I rarely need major machine work done. That is where I save the money. Even if you don't have all the expensive measuring tools in your garage, you can do this. You take your block to a COMPETENT machine shop and have three things done. First, full steam cleaning and pressure cleaning of the block. Second, full checking for cracks. Third, full list of measurements. The machine shop can easily measure everything for you and then give you their recommendations of what should be done. Keep in mind the shop is in the business to make money, not to help you, so you need to be working with someone you can trust. I preferred to just have them clean and measure everything in the old days and then told them I will pick up the block from them when they are done. My story to them is that I have a few different blocks and I am deciding which to use based on budget. Once they realize that you are NOT over a barrel, they usually give you the honest measurements and you pay them for the hours it took them to measure it. Its money well spent.

Most of my Buick/Olds engines did not even require an overbore if I was going to use new pistons and rings. That just meant that once I got the measurements (or took them myself) it was a matter of honing each cylinder to be within the specs of piston-to-bore clearance in my manual. Some cylinders needed to be honed more, but I could get them all done with time, or have the machine shop do it if I took the pistons and the block to them. They can match hone each cylinder to the piston (like they do with new stuff after an overbore) and then you are withing spec without that machining cost of boring.

Of course that is IF your block qualifies, but most of mine have. Even the high mileage Buick/Olds stuff. Every old chevy block I have torn down with more than 50k miles didn't make spec. That's just reality. The 87 and newer blocks seem to make the grade much more often, especially the 96 and newer Vortec parts.

I have not had to have one Buick/Olds block align bored. I know some people have had to do it, but not me. They have always been in spec. Three out of four chevy engines that I did had to have it done. And that sucks mostly because then you have to buy a special length timing chain to make up for the fact that the cam and crank center lines are now closer together. Its not a big deal, but its a pain in the butt and it costs more money.

There is nothing special about a Vortec block per se, its just been built better at the foundry than the older ones were. Its the last of the GEN 1 small block chevy engines and the best made. That 350 block is a direct replacement for any small block chevy, it just uses a one piece rear main seal instead of the 85 and older one piece. It also is machined for the roller cam which saves you a ton of money in parts. The 87 and newer car engines (not pickup truck) have all been roller blocks when I tore them down. That includes the 87-88 Monte Carlo, all the 87 and up Camaro and Firebirds, and the B-body cars too. Maybe some of them weren't, but all the ones I found were. Trucks you never really know about because the engines tend to get replaced more often. I have found quite a few that WERE roller blocks, but not factory installed that I could tell from the numbers. Replacement engines seem to go either way.

My Buick and Olds cranks are the same thing. Rarely do I HAVE to get them turned down. I have spent hours by hand with emery cloth just making them all the same spec, so that all the rod/main bearings have the same clearance. If you had to go to a machine shop to get it turned, it should be the same price as turning a chevy crank. More than one chevy small block crank has been condemned by the machine shop when I turned it in for being bent! Never had that happen with a Buick/Olds piece because most of them are either forged steel or heavy Nodular Iron. Ditto the rods, but I have had more Olds rods fail qualification than Buick parts. Stock chevy rods that are not PM are not getting run in my engines. I have seem too many failures, qualified or not, they are just not good pieces. The LT1 engines and some Vortecs (not sure if all) had PM rods and you can run the numbers to see if they are right ones or not online.

So really, for ME, I know when I do a Buick or Olds engine what I am getting into, and the prices are not bad enough to keep me from doing it. It seems like a lot of guys are getting sold a bill of goods at the machine shop and that maybe the machinist is making money more so than helping you fit your budget.

I hope that helps.

[CHRIS.O]

Two different shops did the machine work. The olds needed line honed. The Chevy did not. The Chevy also did not need decked. Couple hundred right there. I know I got into money when I had to start buying oil pans and sheet metal for the engine. The parts are where it was even pricier because I couldn't find cost effective used Olds parts. People treated them as gold. My intake for my Chevy was 25 dollars, my headers were 150 for hedman. My oldsmobile headers were 600. I'm not arguing that one is better than the other but I have never seen an Olds ever cost less, especially when you buy used. I had about 400 into machine work on the Chevy by a quality machine shop. The other guy who did the olds was kind of a local olds guru so I went to him, I figured having an olds guru do it was worth the money. I believe you guys when you say it is the same price but where are you getting your parts and how are you doing it? My core chevy core cost 100 bucks. I don't think I could buy a non windowed main sbo for that. I understand machine work doesn't cost more but parts do. I'd really like to do a 400-450hp 350 olds but I just don't see how for the same price as a chevy.

[KrisW]

I buy almost 100% used parts, OEM, for my builds.

As far as the Olds "guru" that you had do the machine work, unfortunately it seems that he was more into making money than to helping you out. I said "seems" because I am not there firsthand to talk to anyone or see anything.

My oil pans are OEM. The intake, will be eBay or a swap meet. As I said, I'm on a budget. I have no doubt that you can start throwing money around at big name speed shops and get in deep with parts, but I don't do it. If I have to have headers, I'll use 2nd gen Trans Am headers for the Olds 403.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BIG-11150FLT/

They are 1 3/4 primaries, which is what I use. If they hit something in the chassis, I can make it work. Steering shafts can be moved over with u-joints to replace the rag joint, frames can be clearanced. The 2nd gen firebird motor mounts, exhaust and accessories have all worked well for me in the G-body, so this ought to be close. $160.

I am using OEM block and heads, crank and rods, and the bare minimum on machining. I do not routinely have to deck the block for my Buick/Olds engines, over half of my chevy blocks have needed it. Again, I think your guru may have either needed the money, or might have feared some sort of backlash if everything didn't go right, so rather than do it like I do, everything got reset to zero. IF you do all that machining to a chevy block it will cost a lot too.

Most of the sourcing you need to do if you want a 400-500HP Olds budget build up is going to involve lots of looking and lurking. Spending hours in old wrecking yards, and all that jazz. I found a Buick guy in Arizona that sells V8's for 350 bucks complete, strapped to a pallet. That's the kind of thing you have to find so that you can start with what you want. A non windowed block is preferred, yes. Have you ever broken a windowed block? With ARP main studs (which I run on every engine I build) you are doing well, and if you actually buy a stud girdle, the block is going to be okay. I have yet to break an Olds block, but I am sure someone around here has. It just hasn't happened to me. The money I save at the machine shop can easily buy that girdle.

Its really up to you. If you just look around, you can find everything you need.

[G-Body_Vet]

I don't want to sway too far off point from the original topic but I don't think most people realize what you're really going to spend on a complete quality rebuild. Mine is obviously a Pontiac, but machine work is machine work on everything.

I don't know about you guys....or your areas anyway, but I really had to do some footwork to find a machine shop willing to do the kind of build I wanted. Not to mention that most of the shops I went to were either rude, had insane prices (or hidden costs) for work, or just didn't want to discuss my goals. The first place I went to didn't even want to talk about anything performance and treated me like I was the asshole.

Unless you work at a machine shop or have a buddy there, I don't think there's a cheap way to build anything. You can't expect a blueprint quality engine on a beer budget and that's just the reality behind it. A machinist that's willing to discuss options and work with you on what you have in mind is a big deal too. Sure I could have taken a few short cuts or done some things differently to save a few bucks but it's not what I wanted to do. I wanted quality, performance and longevity out of this engine when it's done. There's no guess work and it's being built 100% for my application. That's a custom ground cam and custom cut forged pistons at prices comparable to off-the shelf parts....for a Pontiac anyway.

Some of my costs:
-running Pontiac 455, $500
-Disassembly, free by me!
-Thermal clean, mag, sonic check & inspection, $205
-Line hone mains, $185
-Bore cylinder & deck block (final hone will be done with torque plates), $280
-Turn crank (includes rod journals once I buy rods).010, $200

A different guy did my heads and I have somewhere around a grand in them. That's buying the 6X-4 cores, SS valves, bowl work, gasket matching, bronze guides, springs, viton seals, minor clean-up milling, tumble cleaning, and CC'ing. In all honesty I may have been better off going with aluminum in the end....but oh well.

After I had my block thermal cleaned and sonic tested for cracks, I received a report containing all of the block info:


1976 Pontiac 455
Block Casting 500813
VIN 26X115915
Casting Date K085 Nov. 8, 1975
Engine Code Y4 0135768


Main Bearing Housing Bore Data

Main Standard Spec is 3.4380 – 3.4390, 3.438 preferred
1 3.4398
2 3.4404
3 3.4397
4 3.4395
5 3.4385

Main bearing bores are in acceptable alignment. Most bores are above size limit,
and several are out of round. Block will require line bore/hone to restore proper
size.

Cylinder Bore Data

CYL 90 45 Pin
1 top 4.1546 4.1553 4.1557
mid 4.1533 4.1538 4.1534
bot 4.1537 4.1537 4.1537

2 top 4.1550 4.1547 4.1564
mid 4.1540 4.1531 4.1544
bot 4.1545 4.1528 4.1568

3 top 4.1546 4.1550 4.1562
mid 4.1531 4.1535 4.1535
bot 4.1525 4.1527 4.1550

4 top 4.1540 4.1540 4.1541
mid 4.1529 4.1526 4.1537
bot 4.1531 4.1520 4.1540

5 top 4.1563 4.1559 4.1556
mid 4.1536 4.1530 4.1542
bot 4.1530 4.1528 4.1544

6 top 4.1549 4.1544 4.1536
mid 4.1531 4.1531 4.1536
bot 4.1529 4.1529 4.1537

7 top 4.1544 4.1532 4.1552
mid 4.1533 4.1528 4.1534
bot 4.1537 4.1530 4.1534

8 top 4.1549 4.1560 4.1550
mid 4.1541 4.1543 4.1537
bot 4.1541 4.1542 4.1538


Cylinder Wall Thickness
Cyl Inboard Thrust Outboard Thrust Min. Side Thickness
1 top .280 .290 .212
mid .286 .296

2 top .335 .270 .209
mid .270 .251

3 top .290 .267 .216
mid .286 .241

4 top .306 .254 .209
mid .301 .238

5 top .290 .270 .206
mid .302 .248

6 top .296 .254 .208
mid .293 .248

7 top .290 .286 .219
bot .283 .267

8 top .306 .267 .209
mid .315 .254

Engine block has minor cylinder wear, and very good wall thickness. Many bore sizes are possible with this block. Should there ever be a need, this block can safely go .060 over. An overbore of .030, or even .020, would be acceptable. A final bore size of 4.165 (+.015) may be possible, and though it would probably require a custom piston, it may yield the best ring selection.

Block deck height is approximately square, with the standard being 10.25. The block will require decking in order to clean up some erosion present in coolant hole areas. The final deck height will have to be determined at the time it is decked.

This is a very sound block, ideal for many types of performance usage. I would recommend line boring/honing the main bearing bores, decking the block, boring and honing with a torque plate and would also suggest the installation of main bearing studs as a top option.

In the end, the difference is well worth it to me and I know exactly what I've had done. I could have gone the cheap route and just ran the engine for what it was like I've done in the past. We're talking about an engine that's 37 years old though. We're looking at a ton of variables that affect reliability so I wanted a complete rebuild.

[KrisW]

I think what you have added is, in fact, quite relevant to the discussion at hand.

Your statements about the machining are exactly the point I was making. I mostly have done Buick/Olds engines, and the Pontiac stuff I have helped others on were not my builds.

As far as the machining goes, with the measurements you got from the shop, I would not have decked the engine. The coolant holes that have the slight damage, I usually repair in a different fashion if I have that. Those statements indicated a definite need for the align-bore, but I would also not have done a full bore on the cylinders. I probably would have taken a heavy hone and gotten the .015 that he suggested. I can do the hone myself usually with pretty respectable results.

I'm not criticizing your build even one bit. You built what you wanted and it is absolutely beautiful. You should be proud. I was just throwing out there what I would have done, because I stick to a very strict budget.

Your cylinder head choice is the preferred budget head, and I would have attempted all the porting myself, with just the valve reconditioning at the guides and seats left to the machine shop. All the rest I try to do myself in the garage.

Thanks for the insights!

[G-Body_Vet]

One thing to really point out here is that this is my first complete, real rebuild. I've been wrenching forever but never got into engine internals at this level. I'm sure I'm competent enough to do most of this, but as hard as it was to find this engine I didn't want to screw it up in the learning process. Nonetheless, I think it gives guys a good idea what you'd spend if you're not experienced in engine building. You can read all day, bench race & bs with the best of 'em, but putting it into practice is a different ballgame.

In hindsight, I probably should have just stroked a 400 instead. I would have had a stronger block, smaller mains, higher rpm capability & more cubes. On another note, I didn't project a budget and haven't been in a hurry. It's been at the shop for a year and we're just doing a little at a time as I can afford it. Luckily the shop is cool with going this route.

I think it's good to get a few different angles on how to go about building something anyway. Part of the process is a confidence building exercise once it's complete. I'll surely be getting more involved the next time around!

And good luck to the OP!