LS Tesla swap

[motorheadmike]

I look forward to low-intelligence people shooting each other over places to plug their cars in because they planned poorly.

Man... that news cycle is going to be juicy.

Electricity? Juice? Eh... Eh?

I am bolting home.

 

[melloelky]

He used to be my hero. Of course he used to have all of his toes too. I guess he lost his mind somewhere along the way as well.

but what ride it must've been though..

 

[ck80]

I'm an electrical engineer and I work in distribution planning and protection for a utility - I am dealing with some of these problems in real-time.

I'll tip my hat to you there sir, I went to URI for their bachelors in Ocean Engineering which.... I guess is their "multidisciplinary" do anything in the ocean or coastal zone kinda deal. The electrical side in the coursework for whatever reason just never was my favorite.

Haven't done any work in the field since the late 2000s.

We can disagree on which technology has more harm... it also depends on how far into the changes you lump in the effects among so much else. ICE gets a big leg up in that it's damage on the production/support infrastructure side has largely been done over the past century. But all that supporting stuff and changeover efforts do need to be considered. Just think of the transmission equipment alone.... it's pretty massive, from land use and rights of way, raw materials, it's generally accepted high tension lines can over a long period of time have adverse health effects, but we would need far far more. Then there is a what else could be done with the manpower and effort applied elsewhere... it all trickles down.

We only have a limited number of resources on this planet and I think they should be used as efficiently as possible.

But again... true efficiency studies have to balance savings over the serviceable life of the upgrade vs what would be getting replaced, then account for startup efforts.

To, as we both keep doing, oversimplify in a generic sense, just make an abstract comparison. Let's pretend using strictly made up numbers, that ICE used 100 units at 40% efficiency, and the residual reuse/upgradability/repurposability (and I'm including machinery repurposing, facilities upgradability and reusability, distribution lifespan etc etc all manner of abstract stuff) is 70% for 1000 net units over say 40 years. That means you've got 40 units effective, and, you need to add 300 units supporting over time period.

Pretend a middle ground. Electric hits 65% net efficiency (75% generation minus 10% distribution/transmission/etc). So in 40 years you gain 25 units a year, or 1000 units saved. But if the whole reuse/repurpose/upgradability is only 30%, you need 700 net units supporting, a loss of 400 units to ICE. Then, if it takes 3000 units to build out the infrastructure to support it... you a net negative of 2200 units over the timespan, and if your footprint was bigger to begin with than ICE (pipelines are easier to build with arguably less upkeep than transmission lines, and, are pretty near 99.9% efficient) then you're even further in the hole.

That's a big net inefficiency, you'd need to go through hundreds of years worth of cycles before breaking even.

Then again, IMO, it's like debating will whale oil or coal oil be more efficient and worth being the energy of the future back in the day. The answer is none of the above. We just aren't there yet. So you need to sample a small time period and invest in research incubators.

Disclosure, of course those numbers are 100% made up BS. But those net calculations aren't happening. The rationale being pushed is just to drop emissions so on so forth, however, you're taking an efficiency argument approach. I don't think the power plant to rapid charger to ev model is going to be a 100 year technology like the refinery to station to ICE is/was.

There is no need for 17 million new cars and trucks to be sold in the US every single year.

Agreed. And it's only getting worse. One benefit to a simpler more streamlined ICE is its rebuildability and updatability. But electronics don't lend themselves to easily being updated. Cite to taking an IBM 8088/286/386/etc and updating it to a modern computer. Compare to the hated sbc to ls swap.

EVs will be more relatively short lived, one and done at a higher rate than ICEs for the most part. It's just not really efficient to try and wholesale upgrade an electrical device except by replacement.

The scope of this conversation is getting too big now - my main point is that EVs are here whether we like it or not and I think they are a welcomed change. I always think it is great to see the perspective of others so I'm glad we're able to debate things like this. You brought up a lot of good points, ck80

I agree that its nice to, even if it's really superficially touching on issues, have discussion.. if nothing else my intent was to flag for other people types of things they might not have ever thought about... to open the eyes that there's more going on here than the idea electricity is clean, fuel burning bad, go ev!

That, and to try and point that those same 17 million+ vehicles and growing every year, shortsighted places are trying to make it so if they had their way they add 17 million evs per year coming as soon as this decade.... and the support structure just isn't there. And it is so far away in terms of cost and technology there is too much rushing into things.

And I didn't even get into the world of environmental impact statements and studies, lack of people competent to conduct all those studies at the scale needed to modernize nationwide, condemnation timelines and disputes.... it's MASSIVE. Man those things are job security for a lot of people I guess.

But look no further than this: we can't even handle letting people run a/c after work in the summer, but, the grid can support hundreds of millions of evs 10 to 15 years from now.... it'll get done in time.... umm.... don't think so. Not in our dysfunctional world where nobody wants any of it in their respective back yard either. There's no shortcut to building out the power generation needed in that time.

A whole different crisis is coming. Too many eggs are in the ev basket. I think the change the way its being implemented is not going to be a welcome one.

 

[carnutjw]

It's almost like we could be civilized for once

It's almost like we're adults.

 

[ck80]

It's almost like we're adults.

Speak for yourself. 😜

 

[carnutjw]

Me- not an engineer, no degree, but a practical approach to questioning things. The current power grid has trouble supporting the current load, what happens when you add X-millions of EV's charging daily/nightly? All that energy has to come from somewhere. As far as range issues, I think most daily commuters would be OK, but for travel/vacations/long distance- is every 100 room hotel going to have 20, 30, 50(?) EV charging plugs? The hybrid direction seems reasonable for folks in more rural areas with potentially long commutes absent of the infrastructure to support charging every EV in town on a daily basis. I originally posted to poke the anti-LS and EV convert bears- guess it worked. Good discussion, and barely skimmed the dreaded politics angle- let's keep it that way.

There is no need for 17 million new cars and trucks to be sold in the US every single year.

Yeah, I help build a portion of those vehicles, so that's kinda my bread and butter, and will have to respectfully disagree. NEED, maybe, maybe not, but I would recommend buying a new Toyota ASAP.

 

[jiho]

I'm an electrical engineer and I work in distribution planning and protection for a utility

Nice to have an unbiased review, from someone who actually knows something.

For me, there's no EV hate. Early on I actually got very enthused for a while. Then I started looking a little closer and started to feel like things were being oversold. At that point you get dubious. And out here, with the wildfire situation and the PG&E scandals, there's a lot to get dubious about. At this point I see wishful thinking on one end and opportunism on the other. So call me cynical.

For example, I doubt your juice bill will be 1/4 for very long if very many other people are plugging in and the grid needs major expansion to keep up with demand -- assuming that can even happen. I just haven't seen the numbers.

Oh, and I forgot. Who wants to remember? We have ancient history with electric supply here. I live within biking distance of Shasta Dam, and once upon a time our little municipal utility had very low rates. Then the state compelled the utility to pay grid rates and their rates multiplied, due to the distance to Grand Coulee and consumption in Los Angeles. Then we had the big Power Crisis, due to gross mismanagement by the state, and all rates multiplied, which led to the gubernatorial recall that put The Terminator in office. It was promised that rates would come back down. Of course they haven't.

So I guess instinctively I just wonder what kind of idiot would willingly become more dependent on electric.

People complain about oil companies, I know. But gas prices are actually a bargain, compared to the late 1950s.

So, is it out of the frying pan, into the fire?

 

[jiho]

The whole floor is a battery.

I hope there's lots of insulation. But imagine if there was a problem with the cooling system and the floor caught fire. I assume there's a shutdown circuit, but what if that failed?

 

[08Malibu]

I hope there's lots of insulation. But imagine if there was a problem with the cooling system and the floor caught fire. I assume there's a shutdown circuit, but what if that failed?

I found 2 pictures I had of the batteries. One in the car, one out. I imagine if they removed it to do the swap it would adversely affect the handling of the car.

 

[doood]

I agree with you that in the grand scheme, this is not a battle of EVs vs ICE - sustainability reaches much further than that. Cities should be more pedestrian, bicycle, and rail friendly. Our current generation, transmission, and distribution infrastructure is not fit for the imminent electrical load increase. You're also correct saying that manufacturing batteries has harsh side effects.

I'm an electrical engineer and I work in distribution planning and protection for a utility - I am dealing with some of these problems in real-time. I am going to disagree with your statement that the manufacturing and support of EVs is more environmentally unfriendly than the ICE counterparts.

Look at this from an efficiency perspective (I'm going to generalize for the sake of keeping it simple) - Liquid fuel (mainly gas and diesel) is extracted, processed, and distributed on a huge scale all across the world to be sold at gas stations. The average ICE vehicle is about 30% efficient in converting the chemical potential energy stored in liquid fuel into usable kinetic energy; most is lost as heat waste. I am completely ignoring the additional inefficiencies that you must consider in distributing the gasoline to the end user.

It is more efficient to use fossil fuels (mainly natural gas) for large scale generation. These plants can have efficiencies in the 60%+ range, up to something like 80%. This is achieved through Combined Heat and Power, in which waste heat is collected and used for boiling water, driving a steam turbine, providing on-site heat, etc. Losses through transmission and distribution lines are typically minimal (<10%), and EVs themselves are usually in the 80%+ range, up to around 95%.

I know that natural gas is not the same as gasoline, the point is that there are better uses of fossil fuels. We only have a limited number of resources on this planet and I think they should be used as efficiently as possible.

Concerning the upfront pollution with battery production (mainly lithium, nickel and cobalt), that is surely an area that needs improvement. Like I said in a previous post though, alternate battery chemistries are currently being researched and developed, which I think is great news as far as sustainability is concerned. Another option is hydrogen fuel cells, which are basically EVs with hydrogen fuel. That eliminates the need for a huge battery, however they have their own set of challenges (such as sourcing the materials needed for the fuel cells - look up PEM fuel cells for more info on that), but are great solution as well.

Recycling batteries is also an area that needs improvement - the recycling process results in the loss of a lot of material, both valuable and invaluable. I had actually heard at one point that in certain scenarios, it is cheaper for some EV manufacturers to not even bother recycling old batteries because too little is gained vs the amount of energy put into the recycling process. They would rather stockpile the old batteries until they can be recycled more efficiently. I'm not sure if this is still the case.

Like I said, I'm not saying junk all ICE vehicles and go straight to EVs. ICEs have their place in the world right now, and we'd be in a lot better of a place if people didn't have the need to always buy new things instead of just sticking with what they've got.

There is no need for 17 million new cars and trucks to be sold in the US every single year. "Growth for the sake of

We need to get back to talking about putting turbos on LS motors; when I read liberal politics and 'Save the World' sustainability stuff on a hot rod forum, it makes me want to puke...