Buick 350 Swap / CCC

[brrian]

I have a Buick 350 that I'm hoping to rebuild to replace the V6 in my 81 Grand Prix. It'll probably be a very mild performance build - I just want a fun daily driver. I've been reading about the pros & cons of the CCC system, and I'm leaning towards keeping it on the 350. Consensus seems to be that it works well & I can retain the lockup converter function. So if I stay w/ CCC, are the two key things I need a 'correct' 4-barrel CCC quadrajet, and an ECM from a V8, maybe a specific V8? Best case for a swap is sometime next year and those are things I can start looking for now.

 

[Bonnewagon]

Wait- you want to use the V-6 CCC system on the 350? Why? I don't think you will ever find the right V-8 CCC parts or maybe you have a source. It is much easier to grab a non-CCC Q-jet and HEI distributor and tune it as you like. You can delete all the CCC stuff with no concerns. The Buick 350 is an under-square torque monster and even in stock trim it will be a fantastic engine for a relatively light G-body car. I had one in a 1968 LeSabre land yacht and it was awesome. Why rebuild it? Is it pushing oil? What is the compression like? If you take it apart be aware of the lower end oiling issues. I used fully grooved main bearings and an oil pump kit to get better oil pressure and assure good crank oiling. Read up on the Buick- there are quirks like packing the oil pump with Vaseline to prime it.

 

[307 Regal]

There was a guy on the forum that swapped a Buick 350 into a Cutlass and made it look almost completely stock. I wish that I could remember what he did with the CCC issue. All that i can remember is that he kept the AC working. :/
If you can't find the special parts, maybe you could use a standalone lock-up system. I know that it's been done, but I don't know what the driving experience will be like.

 

[Bonnewagon]

I used to have a T-350-C w/lockup in my old Malibu wagon. I just ran an ON/OFF switch so I could engage the lockup at highway speeds. It was worth 300-400 rpm. The AC is independent of the CCC in the early years.

 

[brrian]

I'm not 100% sure what I want to do yet. I read a lot about CCC last week & was surprised by all of the positive opinions of it. Maybe I incorrectly assumed that it wouldn't be hard (or odd) to keep it on a SBB swap. If I change motors it won't be until next year, but I'll be at two swap meets this year & whatever I'm doing, I'd like to start looking for some of the things I need.

& the Buick 350 I have is torn apart. It ran beforehand. I'm missing a few things... carb, front end stuff, camshaft, windage tray. I know about most of the quirks you mention. I want to rebuild it myself... I know I can, and I don't know that I can afford to have it professionally done. If I get it back to stock, or slightly better, I'm happy with that.

For what it's worth - when I bought my car I had a friend who's a car guy who was all about helping me doing everything I wanted to do, but he's flaking on me now so I'm mostly on my own. I've learned a lot in the last 2 months & I'm confident in my capabilities but I don't know what I don't know. This group has been a huge help so far.

 

[brrian]

The AC is independent of the CCC in the early years.

So in some years (later?) the AC had something to do with CCC? That's new to me. I have / want AC. Mine's an 81, which is maybe the first year for CCC?

 

[Bonnewagon]

Yes, some cars had it around 1979 like the Toronado and some Cadillacs but 1981 is the year it was standard across the board. On early OBD1 cars it was piggy-backed onto the regular car wiring. The CCC harness went through the firewall on the pass side near the AC harness. You can remove it entirely as I did on my 1981 Malibu wagon. But the AC was not controlled by the CCC system because it was originally an engine management/emissions system. On my Mom's 1989 Olds Cierra the AC WAS part of the system and we had to replace the computer three times for AC problems. In those days you could just grab any OBD1 computer from a similar car and swap the chip for your particular car into it and be on your way. Nowadays the computers run everything from the engine to the heated seats. As for the 350 the most important things are the ring seal and bearings clearances. I learned an expensive lesson many years ago to just leave the pistons/rings alone if you have good compression and no oil burning. That is because if they are bad it is impossible to get the proper cylinder condition at home. A shop can bore/hone/and fit the pistons perfectly so they seal and stay tight for as long as you own it. They only time you can get away with a backyard hone/re-ring job is when it was in such good condition it didn't really need it. See what I mean? Same with the crank and rods. You can take them apart, check for scratches and wear, and if in great shape then just replace with new bearings and check clearances with micrometers or plasti-gauge. But if there are deep scratches or wear then a shop is needed to cut and balance the crank. So if you have a tight short block with good compression and a smooth crankshaft, then you can put new bearings in, get the heads cleaned up and a valve job, fresh components like oil pump, timing chain and gears, water pump, all the wear parts, and have a great engine for relatively low cost all assembled at home. As for the CCC, yes, it is great- when it works. But when it doesn't- endless headaches. The CCC equipped Chevy 229 V-6 in my Malibu could never pass emissions. I tried everything including rebuilding the CCC Dual-jet carb. I gave up, swapped in a 1976 Pontiac 350 with NO emission hardware, just the CAT, and passed emissions with no problem.

 

[Clone TIE Pilot]

Each engine option had its own unique CCC setup. Buick 231, Olds 307, and Chevy 305 had their own setups. For a Buick 350 you would have to adapt a computer nof designed for it. You would be better off getting a SBC and swapping in a Chevy 305 CCC system from a Monte Carlo.

Only ways I see to get CCC to work on a SBB would be to acquire the rare Buick 4.1L V6 E4ME Qjet and modify it to run a larger V8 engine. For the ECM get the rare adjustable aftermarket ECM Cranecams used to make for CCC cars. Not sure about the distributor, perhaps install the V8 reluctor wheel into a V6 CCC distributor with a V8 cap?

 

[brrian]

So if you have a tight short block with good compression and a smooth crankshaft, then you can put new bearings in, get the heads cleaned up and a valve job, fresh components like oil pump, timing chain and gears, water pump, all the wear parts, and have a great engine for relatively low cost all assembled at home.

Based on what I see so far, and what I've been told about it, I'm optimistic that it's in good condition, good enough to be put back together as you describe. My optimism isn't enough though & since it's apart I'll get it all inspected by somebody who knows what to look for. I think I do but I'd rather have experienced eyes on it. The heads are already cleaned & had a valve job done.

Only ways I see to get CCC to work on a SBB would be to accuire the rare Buick 4.1L V6 E4ME Qjet and modify it to run a larger engine. For the ECM get the rare adjustable aftermarket ECM Cranecams used to make for CCC cars.

This is what I was afraid of. I'm fine getting rid of CCC but what about the lockup converter? I can add a switch & turn it on manually, but what's the consequences of it not being locked (if I didn't turn it on)? Poor performance, risk of damage, etc.?

 

[Bonnewagon]

inspected by somebody who knows what to look for.

Too bad the engine was not tested for compression before coming apart. The cylinders may have a ridge at the top from wear. That is the top section of the bore that the rings never touch so it never wears. A lot of ridge indicates a lot of wear/miles. There is a special ridge-reamer tool that cuts the ridge off so new rings don't hit it and get damaged. Also the cylinder bore must be checked for wear, scoring, and out-of-round. This can be checked without removing pistons. If out, pistons need to be checked for scoring and wear. Of course once out- if pistons are OK- clean them up and new rings should go in. That requires removing the ridge and honing the cylinders with a hand-held hone on a drill. If the ridge is minimal, bores are smooth and clean, no deep scratches, no indication of oil burning- you may get away with a DIY honing job. But if there is a large ridge, deep scratches or scoring, out-of-round, and indication of a lot of blow-by on the pistons- time for a shop to bore/hone/fit new pistons. That is why I learned to do a compression test and if good- just leave it alone and build around it.