CUTLASS Long-neglected, my 1979 Cutlass Calais swap plans. Or lack of plans. Or . . what makes sense in 2021?

[King_V]

Geez, I can't believe it's been 5 years since I've been here... 5 years, and I've done exactly jack, and squat, with my Cutlass Calais.

And, if anything, it's made me more indecisive. The one constant is that the 260 will be replaced with... something. Also, life sort of got in the way. It's sneaky like that.

(note to self: you did this to yourself, dude!)

I've literally gone from "build the 455 that I have" to "go with a modern E-Rod engine" to "Hmm, a mildly built 403 sounds nice and would use all my existing brackets, etc" and just spun myself senseless.

What's more . . if I've read the quick glances over some threads correctly, a Gen IV or Gen V from the E-Rod program will fit, AND, am I right about this, a 6L80 will go in as well, WITHOUT the need to cut a G-body's trans tunnel?

But then I recently saw Jay Leno's video where he's driving a 79 Trans Am with a Pontiac 400, and he said that, despite the low horsepower rating, the large amount of low-end torque made the car feel more powerful than the numbers make it sound, and very enjoyable to drive.

I *do* have a modern car... 2015 Mustang GT, so there is that. But when I think of my Olds, I start thinking "well, I should do aluminum heads, fuel-injection, etc"

So, various thoughts:
Engine:

• Old era engines - I don't care about hero horsepower numbers, but gobs of low end torque and great drivability. Smooth idle. Planning for peak HP to be at no more than 5000 RPM, maybe in the high 4000s range.
  • Simple rebuild on 455, regular manifolds (decent headers are pricey for a big-block in a G-body, aren't they?), get some brackets to be able to attach the accessories. I already have a ran when pulled 455, though it's been sitting on a stand for over a dozen years. Stock from a 1972 Olds 98.
  • Mild build on a 403 - everything I need to bolt all the pieces together are still there on the existing 260, hood clearance is nicer for a better intake, SBO headers are more available and less expensive.
    • Stroker crank, or offset grind the journals? I'd personally be tickled if it came to 425 cubic inches.

But then: well, roller cam and roller lifters are the way to go. Also aluminum heads, particularly those with the heart shape chambers. But then the pistons should have shaped dishes to match the chamber shape. Modern ring materials, and hopefully closer tolerances overall allowing for thinner oil. And probably eventually fuel injection. And.. and..

That said, I'm strongly leaning in favor of the 403 at this point, though I don't have an existing 403. I figure that its rated power of 185hp and 320ft-lb stock, wheezing through a single-exhaust and super-restrictive 70s catalytic converter should be VERY easy to improve upon.

And then I start to wonder - won't that make the old engine start to cost about as much as getting an E-Rod? Which already has great heads, a modern intake design, heads/combustion chambers, pistons, valves, rings, etc; basically everything inside the engine is already up to the standards of today, and some of the kits even come with the front part of the exhaust system and catalysts. Uh, I think?

In any case, will the build of the older engines even match, or come close, the torque output of the modern ones?

At the moment, I'm slightly leaning toward a 403, but once I add roller cam/lifters and aluminum heads to the mix, am I killing cost-effectiveness in comparison to E-Rod LS3 or LT1?

I realize, of course, that getting one of those as a kit with a transmission (the Connect & Cruise) bumps the price up considerably. But if we stick for the time being with engine-only comparisons, how does it come out?

Any thoughts/suggestions and explanations as to what/how/why are greatly appreciated. Except for "get off your lazy butt and do something with the car already" because I tell myself that now

(side note: and yes, a full-on electric swap had crossed my mind, but that, from what little research I've done, is very cost-prohibitive)

 

[abbey castro]

Hey Dude! I see you already said: "get off your lazy butt and do something with the car already" Make up your mind, time flies and before you know it you will have forgotten your name. You know a Pontiac/Chevy Iron Duke would look nice in there. Nobody had done that, well at least I have never seen one!

Rebuilt GM Iron Duke Engines – The Highest Quality Remanufactured Engines At Super Low Prices!

remanufacturedenginesforsale.com

 

[ck80]

Honestly, to be really happy you be got to step away from the engine for a moment, then go back to it last.

Question 1: what wheel/tire does it take to make you happy.

Question 2: what are you willing to buy for a rear diff setup (vs what do you have)

Question 3: what's your remaining budget for engine/trans

Question 4: what's your driving habits/environment.

Now you can pick an engine.

Those "modern" engines? Those tq/hp numbers you see plastered all over are typically way outside the usable ranges for most people. My guess is one reason why Leno enjoyed the TA better than many newer higher hp cars is it wasn't work to drive, you just relaxed and had fun. And a lot of their curves came in much lower rpm, especially tq curve, than modern engines.

That mustang gt you have? Here's two stock sets of dyno numbers i pulled off the internet really quick on that power plant.

View attachment 171867


You know what you see? At 3000rpm the car has less than 200 crank or rwhp.

How much driving around can you keep the engine pegged all the way up at 5000rpm? And how fun is that to try keeping doing?

We've got a pair of GHIG colored and a pair of deep impact colored mustangs. They're fun in their own way. But I get where Leno comes from too because I think in the same way.

 

[ck80]

As for the 403... try the search function.

Courtesy of one fellow member:

Olds 403 Build

Some were curious on the 403 dyno results from Friday: 430hp @5500rpm and 471ft-lbs at 4100rpm, my guess was 430/475, not a bad guess Specs: 410.6 ci, 9.789:1 final CR, includes top ring piston to cylinder wall gap otherwise it was 10.2:1 prior to final assembly .030 cometic gaskets #6 heads...

gbodyforum.com

 

[abbey castro]

I have a 2006GTO with an LS2 (400hp) easy to drive, so smooth and more hp than it needs. Can burn them forever. I see bunches of car at shows with so much HP that they cannot be comfortable to drive. My 87SS has a crate ZZ4 (355 HP) Very comfortable and so easy on the body to drive. Had a 70 LS6 that I did the full engine upgrades for that time. General Kinetics Race Cam, Crane Heads, Duffy Pistons etc. etc. Was hard to drive on the street, beat your body up with the noise even through mufflers and feathering the clutch so as to not do burnouts all the time. I will never do that again!

 

[olds307 and 403]

If your 455 runs, it may be good as is. The 455 is a good motor, especially if 5000 rpm is all it will ever see. It will be 8 to 1 with a mild cam similar to the 307 Vin 9 cam stock. Use W/Z exhaust manifolds, Thornton sells them. All the brackets fit except the factory G body A/C brackets need lengthening. Use the factory non A/C alternator brackets, fit both SBO and BBO, matching pullies with the correct length water pump, 5.6", I believe. The 455 and 403 should get a big 2 core aluminum rad as part of the swap. If you want a direct swap SBO motor and 425 ci, get an Olds 350 with the new Billet 5140 4" stroker crank. It runs much cooler and has a much stronger bottom end than the 403. Cutlassefi offers stroker packages for the 350 for around $2500. He also helped redesign the Edelbrock aluminum heads with a small 68cc chamber option out this Summer. He also is trained in and sells Holley and AEM EFI. His personal car, a 72 Cutlass Convertible has an Olds 350 with sequential multiport Accel EFI. I have dealt with Mark Remmel for years. Your TH200 will probably last about a day, plan on a beefed up TH350, TH2004R or a near stock short tail TH400.

 

[Steve 82 Elly]

Paralysis by analysis, I'm that way too. I like what ck80 said, just take a step back and think about what you really want. All I know is to follow your heart. If you compromise somewhere/something, you'll never really be happy with it. Good luck!!!

 

[King_V]

Hey Dude! I see you already said: "get off your lazy butt and do something with the car already" Make up your mind, time flies and before you know it you will have forgotten your name. You know a Pontiac/Chevy Iron Duke would look nice in there. Nobody had done that, well at least I have never seen one!

Rebuilt GM Iron Duke Engines – The Highest Quality Remanufactured Engines At Super Low Prices!

remanufacturedenginesforsale.com

LOL, I actually considered buying a late 70s Pontiac Phoenix that had the Iron Duke... and strange ideas like this HAVE occurred to me, but with more modern V6 or 4-cylinder engines.

Honestly, to be really happy you be got to step away from the engine for a moment, then go back to it last.

Question 1: what wheel/tire does it take to make you happy.

Question 2: what are you willing to buy for a rear diff setup (vs what do you have)

Question 3: what's your remaining budget for engine/trans

Question 4: what's your driving habits/environment.

Now you can pick an engine.

Those "modern" engines? Those tq/hp numbers you see plastered all over are typically way outside the usable ranges for most people. My guess is one reason why Leno enjoyed the TA better than many newer higher hp cars is it wasn't work to drive, you just relaxed and had fun. And a lot of their curves came in much lower rpm, especially tq curve, than modern engines.

That mustang gt you have? Here's two stock sets of dyno numbers i pulled off the internet really quick on that power plant.

You know what you see? At 3000rpm the car has less than 200 crank or rwhp.

How much driving around can you keep the engine pegged all the way up at 5000rpm? And how fun is that to try keeping doing?

We've got a pair of GHIG colored and a pair of deep impact colored mustangs. They're fun in their own way. But I get where Leno comes from too because I think in the same way.

Yep, and what I meant was that I already have something modern, so would I just be giving myself another "modern-like" car? Though, with modern transmissions and gearing keeping me in the sweet spot. I will credit it, though, as having 300lb-ft of torque by the time it gets to 1800 RPM.

As to your list of questions:

1. I'm nearly certain my wheels will be 15x7 SSI Rallye with 235/60R15 tires. Raised white letter tires a must!
2. Rear diff, I hadn't figured out yet, but I would likely be going with 3.23 or 3.42
   1. But if I get a full axle and rear, might as well get rear disc brakes on it
3. and coupled with an overdrive automatic. I was planning on going with a 200-4R.
   1. However, I stumbled across something about a valvebody from Powertrain Control solutions that turns a 4L80E into a 5 speed by basically having the shifts go as 1st, 1st+OD, 2nd, 3rd, 4th. I don't know if that's ONLY available for a 4L80E, or also the possibly also the 4L65/4L70/700R4, in non-electronic form.
   2. Or if such an option were available on the 200-4R. In which case, can I get a 200-4R with a deeper first gear (I like that the 200-4R is BOP, with some that are universal BOP-C)
   3. But, of course, the trans I choose would be based on the engine. If I went modern, then the Connect-and-Cruise packages for the Gen 4 and 5 engines, the 8-speed auto is only slightly more than getting it with the 4-speed auto.
   4. Yet, if I go with a vintage engine, where I'd be focusing on low end torque, would I really need the advantage of all the extra gears? (even on the Mustang, I sometimes wonder how useful/necessary that crazy 1st gear really is)
4. Ah, the engine . . vintage with "ton of torque off idle" or a modern complete package?

As for the 403... try the search function.

Courtesy of one fellow member:

Olds 403 Build

Some were curious on the 403 dyno results from Friday: 430hp @5500rpm and 471ft-lbs at 4100rpm, my guess was 430/475, not a bad guess Specs: 410.6 ci, 9.789:1 final CR, includes top ring piston to cylinder wall gap otherwise it was 10.2:1 prior to final assembly .030 cometic gaskets #6 heads...

gbodyforum.com

I like it, have been reading, and drooling. If I could adjust things, I would probably want the same level of torque, but bring the entire curve downward about 1500 RPM, and maybe drop a little compression, if needed, to make it 87-octane friendly (not a deal killer, though). I really love the fact that it produces so much vacuum at idle.

If your 455 runs, it may be good as is. The 455 is a good motor, especially if 5000 rpm is all it will ever see. It will be 8 to 1 with a mild cam similar to the 307 Vin 9 cam stock. Use W/Z exhaust manifolds, Thornton sells them. All the brackets fit except the factory G body A/C brackets need lengthening. Use the factory non A/C alternator brackets, fit both SBO and BBO, matching pullies with the correct length water pump, 5.6", I believe. The 455 and 403 should get a big 2 core aluminum rad as part of the swap. If you want a direct swap SBO motor and 425 ci, get an Olds 350 with the new Billet 5140 4" stroker crank. It runs much cooler and has a much stronger bottom end than the 403. Cutlassefi offers stroker packages for the 350 for around $2500. He also helped redesign the Edelbrock aluminum heads with a small 68cc chamber option out this Summer. He also is trained in and sells Holley and AEM EFI. His personal car, a 72 Cutlass Convertible has an Olds 350 with sequential multiport Accel EFI. I have dealt with Mark Remmel for years. Your TH200 will probably last about a day, plan on a beefed up TH350, TH2004R or a near stock short tail TH400.

It ran well when it last ran, despite the screwy carb at idle. It would overheat if idling for an extended period. I think one side of the block had its coolant passages a bit clogged. When I pulled the engine, the one block drain dumped out coolant, but the other side . . nothing?

I'm a little unclear - the factory non-AC alternator brackets should be used for . . the AC? Or can be used on an AC car's driver-side alternator, regardless of SBO vs BBO.
The compressor I have is the R4 (I think? The smaller one). It works, but clatters, and the system has a slow leak.

Still, with the stock hood, I wonder if it'll cause limitations for intake choice, if the air cleaner will fit under (huh, need to get a 4-bbl air cleaner), etc.

I wasn't really married to the idea of 425 cubes specifically, so I wouldn't go with that much of a stroke on a SBO. But, if I did go 403, the power levels of the 403 that ck80 linked to wouldn't cause it any issues, would it? I don't plan to go crazy revs or insane HP numbers. Does he offer similar packages for 403, though not that much of an increase in stroke?

SBO SEFI? I think I have to talk with Mark/Cutlassefi.... Does he have a website?

Paralysis by analysis, I'm that way too. I like what ck80 said, just take a step back and think about what you really want. All I know is to follow your heart. If you compromise somewhere/something, you'll never really be happy with it. Good luck!!!

LOL, you're not kidding! I couldn't even answer ck80's list of 4 questions without going all over the place!




Right now, though, I think I'm leaning as follows:

• 403
• aluminum heads and intake
• roller cam/lifters/rockers
• mild stroking (?)
• 87-octane friendly (?)
• NET measured 400+ lb-ft torque (not sure if that 471 lb-ft 403 linked is the equivalent of an SAE Net number or not, but I assume not), ideally with at least 85-90% of it available at cruising RPM
• SEFI (?)
• 3.42 rear
• 200-4R transmission, tight converter, with lockup.

I think. Ask me again in a few hours

 

[1evilregal]

welcome back, glad to see you're at it again. I understand the part of life getting in the way, been dealing with onset of rheumatoid arthritis, and wasn't able to do anything on the cars this winter.

I kinda like the idea of the 403/200r4. the modern era cars are nice and all, but why do we have the older cars in the first place? I kinda lean towards the resto-mod crowd, mixing the older and newer. have you thought about a sniper/fast efi type setup? if I ever get back to the wagon build (taken another backseat to the GP and Regal) I'm planning on a 4.3 hybrid with the sfi injection, to make it a fairly reliable DD (rust is soo bad, it may last a couple years).

 

[olds307 and 403]

The stroker crank is stronger and lighter than the 330 crank. They are putting out 400+ hp and 500+ ft/lbs in the mildest form. The 403 block and crank is weak but fine for your idle to 5000 rpm goals. The stock heads have sn awful exhaust port. What octane are you planning on running? The build link would need 93 octane, almost guaranteed. Yes, Mark brought some Autotech 403 pistons to the market as well as cheaper 403 MLS head gaskets. My 403 always ran hot, that is why I decided on building my 350 with a 3.5 stroke instead of a .040" overbore and 3.5" stroke 403. Your 455 would work with a Performer and 2" tall drop base air cleaner. Also the stock 4bbl would fit even better. There are no factory style brackets that work with a R4 compressor and a 455. People have measured and welded extensions on the stock brackets. The non A/C brackets move the alternator to where the A/C compressor is now. Cutlassefi website name is escaping me, his email is [email protected].