New Cars Overcomplicated

[pontiacgp]

I have some friends of friends who were technicians at dealerships for years and have quit due to the frustration of working on the new cars. They fix one problem and new one crops up. They spend hours trying to fix electrical issues with the best equipment available. They build these cars so complicated no one can fix them. It's only going to get worse I think..

"J.D. Power’s Vehicle Dependability Study, which for 2016 saw the average number of problems for the industry rise yet again. Once again it was problems with in-car tech that led to the rise. In fact, in-car tech was responsible for 20 percent of all owner-reported problems."

 

[montec]

And that my friend is why I have the vehicles in my sig. I carry a code reader in my wife Trailblazer at all times.

 

[pontiacgp]

I'm starting a proceeding to try to force Infinity to buy back my son's car or get enough compensation so he doesn't take a big hit on the car when he sells it. . In 18 months it's been back in the dealers for warranty work 15 times

 

[joesregalproject]

I don't think this is necessarily true. The complexity isn't for nothing. Cars certainly don't break down as much as they used to. Diagnostics has changed drastically in the past 40 years. In 1970 when your car broke down, you popped the hood and looked for obvious issues. If you didn't see anything, you started taking the engine apart. Now, the car tells you the problem area (OBDII's purpose) and leaves it to the technician to determine the solution based on observation and further investigation. Most Techs nowadays are trained to recognize pattern failures and how certain codes may mean something other than what they say. They are also taught how to use tools such as the Pico scope, which is an amazing tool that tells you exactly what is happening in the engine without having to take anything apart. With the right tools and training, new cars aren't too difficult to work on. You certainly don't have to just throw parts at cars hoping they fix the issue like we used to with pre-on board diagnostics cars. I for one find most newer cars easier to diagnose and repair than older cars. I guess it just depends on what you are familiar with.

 

[joesregalproject]

I'm starting a proceeding to try to force Infinity to buy back my son's car or get enough compensation so he doesn't take a big hit on the car when he sells it. . In 18 months it's been back in the dealers for warranty work 15 times

Sounds like he just got a lemon. What I said before isn't to say the occasional lemon doesn't roll down the line. There have been lemons as long as there has been cars, and there probably always will be. My dad's sister got a free car off of a lemon law. She had a Chrysler Lebaron Convertible and every time she put the top down, the rear glass would break. Chrysler ended up buying the car back and giving her another $16,000 toward a new vehicle.

 

[V8 Rumble]

I'm starting a proceeding to try to force Infinity to buy back my son's car or get enough compensation so he doesn't take a big hit on the car when he sells it. . In 18 months it's been back in the dealers for warranty work 15 times

Are there amy lemon car laws in CA?

 

[Bonnewagon]

As much as I like the simplicity of old cars, it sure is nice when my newer car TELLS me what is ailing it. That said, just wait until OBD3 or something comes out and all bets are off. My complaint with OBD2 is that there is not enough feedback to the ECM to know when something is just not working. For example on a Firebird we chased a mind boggling intermittent no start/hard start for YEARS until the fuel pump finally quit for good. The computer told it to turn on, but had no idea if it did or not. A simple fuel pressure sender would have told the ECM something is wrong. On the other hand, with my Jeeps I have replaced 4 fuel injectors. 3 were diagnosed by the ECM as cylinder miss fires and even told me which cylinder it was. The last one was diagnosed as a bad converter, but I figured out it was an injector. So I will take all the technology they come up with if I get cars with great mileage, power, and engines that are as tight at 100k as they were new.

 

[Clone TIE Pilot]

I don't think this is necessarily true. The complexity isn't for nothing. Cars certainly don't break down as much as they used to. Diagnostics has changed drastically in the past 40 years. In 1970 when your car broke down, you popped the hood and looked for obvious issues. If you didn't see anything, you started taking the engine apart. Now, the car tells you the problem area (OBDII's purpose) and leaves it to the technician to determine the solution based on observation and further investigation. Most Techs nowadays are trained to recognize pattern failures and how certain codes may mean something other than what they say. They are also taught how to use tools such as the Power Probe, which is an amazing tool that tells you exactly what is happening in the engine without having to take anything apart. With the right tools and training, new cars aren't too difficult to work on. You certainly don't have to just throw parts at cars hoping they fix the issue like we used to with pre-on board diagnostics cars. I for one find most newer cars easier to diagnose and repair than older cars. I guess it just depends on what you are familiar with.

Good mechanics in the old days didn't just throw parts either, they used all of their senses to track down problems and it is becoming a lost art, and even some modern day techs still throw parts at the problem. Some trouble codes can be very vague and can be caused by 1,000 different things. That is not to say OBD isn't a help because it is a help, even in the CCC systems of G bodies . Also modern stuff can be harder to take apart or require greater disassembly. Changing a fan belt in a G body is pretty easy and only takes simple common hand tools. Replacing a fan belt on a modern car often requires taking apart engine or trans mounts and supporting the engine. How all the belt driven devices in a G body can be replaced in car while most modern cars require the whole engine to be removed. Even with engine removal, you can just use a shop crane to life the motor out while the majority of modern cars require a vehicle lift to raise the whole car to drop the motor from underneath. Another example would be with the oil pump for LS engines, it can only be properly installed with the block sat up at 90 degrees, you can't replace it in vehicle.

 

[oldsmobile joe]

cars are more complicated to diagnose. the tools we use are more sophisticated. but the real problem is there is so much more to know and the lack of factory help in getting the knowledge to the techs. i have worked in dealerships for over 30 years as a tech. chevy, ford and now toyota. we now have computers for eng, trans, suspension, climate control, door locks, power windows, navigation, radio, sat, blue tooth, power moving doors, hid headlights, brakes, instrumentation, backup cameras, lane departure, blind spot monitor, etc. yes we have the fancy computer tools and books to help. but, when the technical writer fails to understand the complexity of integrating these systems and that looking at an electrical diagram in a book is not the same at working on the actual car, hair pulling quickly follows. some manufacturers train their techs very well, and give them every bit of knowledge possible to fix the car without having to contact the factory. other manufacturers feel that knowledge is a hierarchal system, only give the minimum, and make them call in for the rest and go up the chain of knowledge from there.
i can not praise enough, the techs that succeed working at the independent shops. they are smarter than all the automotive engineers and computer engineers put together.

 

[joesregalproject]

Good mechanics in the old days didn't just throw parts either, they used all of their senses to track down problems and it is becoming a lost art, and even some modern day techs still throw parts at the problem. Some trouble codes can be very vague and can be caused by 1,000 different things. That is not to say OBD isn't a help because it is a help, even in the CCC systems of G bodies . Also modern stuff can be harder to take apart or require greater disassembly. Changing a fan belt in a G body is pretty easy and only takes simple common hand tools. Replacing a fan belt on a modern car often requires taking apart engine or trans mounts and supporting the engine. How all the belt driven devices in a G body can be replaced in car while most modern cars require the whole engine to be removed. Even with engine removal, you can just use a shop crane to life the motor out while the majority of modern cars require a vehicle lift to raise the whole car to drop the motor from underneath. Another example would be with the oil pump for LS engines, it can only be properly installed with the block sat up at 90 degrees, you can't replace it in vehicle.

I'm gonna politely disagree with you. While mechanics didn't all used to just throw parts, I personally think it was a more common practice prior to OBD. With my Power Probe II and my laptop, misdiagnosis is very very rare. I usually work on Chevy trucks and a lot of Hondas and Toyotas. I've never had an issue changing a serpentine belt, and I find the serp belt and tensioner is a much better system than the old one belt per accessory system. Also I usually don't have any issues removing an engine to access something, although I'll admit to doing it a few more times than I'd have liked to. I've never once had to lift a vehicle's body to drop the motor from underneath. In fact, the only vehicle I've ever heard where you "have" to do this is the Ford Excursion V10s. Engine removal in the Hondas and Toyotas couldn't be easier, especially with the new ones that are coil-on-plug. It's usually 3 engine/trans mounts, a torque strut, exhaust and some wiring. No rediculous vacuum lines to deal with. The variable valve timing systems aren't as complex as people make them out to be either. Also I've never had to remove an engine to do a timing belt, although I've mostly only done them on Hondas.