'83 Cutlass

[dan-c]

First post, been lurking for a while.

What I need are opinions...

My son's in Iraq and will be coming back in a few months. He has an '83 Cutlass 307, buckets and console, 91K original miles. No rust at all, trunk looks brand new.
As much as I've tried to get him to sell the car, it's the love of his life. I respect that.
So far we paid $2800 for the car and he's put in a timing chain, brakes, a/c fixed, etc, etc to the tune of ~ $4000.
Since he's saved his money over there he wants to get more stuff done to it for performance. I want to do it intelligently so this is what I've suggested so far (he's gonnna have someone else do the work):
You all have suggested the quickest way to better performance is to replace the rear end gear. It has the 7.5" probably a 2.low low gear. I was thinking it could be upgraded to a 7-5/8 rear and stick a minimum of a 3:07. Should we go higher or lower?
He wants some American Racing 18" Cragar S/S style chrome wheels, in my experience with bigger wheels, he should go lower on the rear, like a 3.73
Before he does much more than that I've suggested all new suspension and body spacers. Do y'all think this is a decent approach?

Then a Tremec 6 speed. He really wants one. Is the swap gonna kill him price wise? I know the transmission is about 4 large. Not to mention the clutch, etc, etc

He eventually wants to swap the engine for a 350 Chevy but I've told him to stay with Olds and use a mildly built Rocket 350. Correct?

Oh, one more thing. He's gonna end up putting a ton of money in this car (new pain, interior) , worth it?


Any insight y'all can give is appreciated.

He's some pics

 

[Blake442]

If that's what he wants, then it's worth it! 😀
Looks like a pretty clean car.

You're right, an Olds 350 would be a better choice, as it will drop right in place of the 307, and you won't have to monkey around with changing wiring, mounts, etc...

A 3.23 or 3.42 rear gear would be great for the 3-speed auto trans the car probably has now, but if you're planning on a 6-speed manual down the line, you could get away with 3.73 or even 4.10. For now, I personally would go with 3.23 until the rest of the driveline is upgraded, as it will already be a huge difference from the 2.41 or 2.73 gears that are probably in it now.

Replacing all the suspension bushings, steering components, and even the body bushings will be a good move, and will greatly improve the feel of the car, as well as cutting down on squeeks and rattles. Also start tracking down all the extra bracing that you can, as every little bit helps.

 

[billyjack]

Frankly, spending a ton of money on a G-body Cutlass is not a very wise investment, since resale just isn't as strong as many other rodded vehicles. Have him put an outline together, with proposed mods and costs, and see how it looks as a total package. Having some sort of plan to follow may avoid the "for sale cheap-needs completed" scenario you see all too often. I agree with Blake in many aspects. Consider a well thought out 350, 403 or 455 Olds motor, fresh suspension, a 3-something posi (you can stay with the 7.5 with reasonable driving), and a decent transmission. The huge outlay for a new Tremec is scary. I'd have to consider some alternatives. The time and effort necessary to formulate a plan and budget now will likely pay huge dividends in the future.

Bill

 

[dan2286]

I think for the most part, you never put money into a car and expect to get it back through selling it. Most cars are never a good investment unless it is some kind of rare collectible car. Most people just put money into it because they enjoy it and they know they will never get their money back from it.

 

[dan-c]

I think for the most part, you never put money into a car and expect to get it back through selling it. Most cars are never a good investment unless it is some kind of rare collectible car. Most people just put money into it because they enjoy it and they know they will never get their money back from it.

Frankly, spending a ton of money on a G-body Cutlass is not a very wise investment, since resale just isn't as strong as many other rodded vehicles. Have him put an outline together, with proposed mods and costs, and see how it looks as a total package. Having some sort of plan to follow may avoid the "for sale cheap-needs completed" scenario you see all too often. I agree with Blake in many aspects. Consider a well thought out 350, 403 or 455 Olds motor, fresh suspension, a 3-something posi (you can stay with the 7.5 with reasonable driving), and a decent transmission. The huge outlay for a new Tremec is scary. I'd have to consider some alternatives. The time and effort necessary to formulate a plan and budget now will likely pay huge dividends in the future.
Bill

All good advice. He says he doesn't expect to ever sell the car. You know how 20 year olds are

His idea is that while he has the money he'd rather put it in something he owns and wants instead of a new car.
I agree about the Tremec though.

He wants me to find a good garage to work on the car, we aren't going to do the work ourselves. Another question for him is if he sinks 15-20000 in the car will he be able to get it insured for what he has in it.

Thanks for the opinions fellows.
Dan

 

[85 Cutlass Brougham]

I am 35 now and have owned my Cutlass since I was 19-so it is possible. (I also still own my first car that I got at 15, and a truck I bought new in 1998, but that's another story.) However, I would caution him that nothing is ever cheap, and that there is only so far you can go with a G body before you run up against it's inherent design limitations (it's origins are from 1964 or 68 depending on how you look at it). I will say that if it is what he wants to do, it's not a bad thing to play with old cars. Have him read my (ongoing) build thread to get an idea of just how much heartache it can be. Things do not go as planned-ever- and there are ALWAYS unforeseen costs and problems. My advice would be to have a daily driver before he goes off really getting in to the Cutlass.

As for what to do, it will all depend on his budget. If he really wants a 6 speed, using a Chevy engine is the easy way to go. However, I would use an LSX with EFI out of a wreck rather than an old engine if building from scratch. The swap will probably run about $7-8k with everything (computer, gas tank, clutch linkage, transmission, exhaust, etc.) if done at home. (Yes, I know it can be done cheaper, but not by most first timers). If staying automatic, the Olds 350 or 403 would be easier and cheaper options. As for wheels, 18's are stretching it a bit, but still doable. The wheel wells in these cars are rather tight and may require trimming and rolling if wide tires are in the plans. That is what I did to my car to fit 245 50 16's without rubbing. For a rear end, use a Grand National/442 8.5 rear if using a manual trans. If a mild 350 and an automatic are planned, you could score a cheap 3.23 7.5 out of a high altitude V6 car with the right option code (GU4, IIRC) and call it good. I run one in my car and got the whole thing for $50 out of a 231 v6 4 door 83 Regal. It makes a HUGE improvement in performance and works well with a torquey engine.

As for investment, no. It won't make him any money. He can spend all he wants, but a G body Cutlass will not bring more than $8-10k no matter how amazing it may be. The exceptions would possibly be the H/O and 442 models, or extreme customs, but it would be a rare car that pulls that money. Also, if he is the sort that is afraid to dive headlong into a very complex project he is better off not building that car. It will destroy him financially and cost him the down payment on a modestly priced house (it may do that anyways). However, if he loves to tinker with stuff, it is a lot of fun. You just don't want to do it with your primary form of transportation. I wouldn't even use a stock G body as my daily driver as there are better options that are more reliable and better performing and will cost far less. Even a 4 cylinder Camry (and I HATE Camrys) is a better daily driver than most stock G bodies. The exceptions would be the pickups, wagons and Turbo Regals. Pickups and wagons for utility, Regals for power and performance.

As for paint and body, that can easily set you back more than the cost of the mechanicals if you pay someone to do it for you. A truly great paint job in a high end paint system can run from $3,000-10,000 depending on the shop and what he wants done. The interior, stereo, suspension, bigger brakes, etc. are also pricey unless you know what you are doing. Even then, it can still cost big bucks. He needs to sit down and make an honest assessment of what he wants. I would also caution him to get a good career going before he really plays with the car too much. In the long run, a good career will let him do far more with not only the car, but his life as well. It is a lesson I wish I had learned years ago. I never would have put so much into my damn cars if I had. They are NEVER right, and always want more of my money. However, I do own a house that I bought at 22, so at least I have a stable place to mess with them.


One more thing (I love to write...lol) The G Body community is generally made up of do it yourselfers, and by paying a shop for all that work he will put himself at odds with others who own similar cars. If you read lots of threads here, most of us spend very little money paying for the services of professionals and instead tend to work on a more communal model of car building. Many of us have other enthusiasts in our circle of acquaintances that we share time and effort with to produce our cars and that is what makes up our subculture. So, to fit into the G Body subculture you need to try to build your own car and not farm it out.

 

[dan-c]

...One more thing (I love to write...lol) The G Body community is generally made up of do it yourselfers, and by paying a shop for all that work he will put himself at odds with others who own similar cars. If you read lots of threads here, most of us spend very little money paying for the services of professionals and instead tend to work on a more communal model of car building. Many of us have other enthusiasts in our circle of acquaintances that we share time and effort with to produce our cars and that is what makes up our subculture. So, to fit into the G Body subculture you need to try to build your own car and not farm it out....

Lots good advice here. We're looking for ideas. I suck at car mechanics even though I tinker with and restore old Yamaha two strokes. He isn't very mechanical himself.

As far as careers, Uncle Sugar has got his back on that one. He's been saving money for his education as well as the new GI Bill that just passed has him in pretty good shape. All he has to do is survive the next 4 years in the Infantry

I suppose I will try and talk him into just improving the really good base he has that would mainly involve cosmetics. I think a lower rear end and refurbished suspension would be the best course. He wants to use the car as a daily driver. Go fast and other performance changes from stock probably aren't the best way to go with the daily driver in mind.

He's aware that little stuff is gonna break semi frequently, but a lot of that stuff is done, like switches, window felts. Stuff like that. As solid as the car is now, he should be able to use it as a daily driver. Only when he rotates back to CONUS. After Iraq he's goes back to Fairbanks, AK. He didn't want to take it up there and watch it disintegrate before his eyes. A back-up vehicle is a good idea, his plan is to get a beemer like mine.

Thanks a lot for your honesty and lack of flames, 85 CB 😀 I'll point him to your build-up thread

 

[dogsht]

Honestly you have to learn to do basic simple stuff yourself and farm out what you can't or should not do. Also research first and only take advice from those who have done that type of upgrade. Many will give advice with little first hand experience. Like 85 Cutty said makeing friends with others and pooling your skills/resources to work on each others automotive projects has its worthwhile advantages. I agree with doing a gear swap. One of the biggest bangs for the buck and no real downside if you don't get to carried away with your gear choice.

Assuming a three speed and a bang for the buck approach also the fact that your mechanical aptitude is still low. I would not buy a new gear & or posi and then try to install it yourself. Some get lucky others find it should not be attempted by the novice especially without the proper tools. Much like yourself a few years ago I took the stock 2.56 rear out of my 88 Cutlass. I did not take the gear out I dropped the whole rear out from drum to drum. It is a much easier and much more idiot proofed swap that only requires common tools. I first went to a salvage yard an had them locate on their computer a 7.625 generically lumped with/as a 7.5 out of a Monte Carlo SS. In your case an earlier I think 83, 84, 85 would come with a 3.42 gear. This is the lowest rear end gear wise that I would recommend for a three speed. A 3.23 or maybe even 3.08 would be better imo but much harder to find. In fact you would probably like the 3.42 better with a taller tire especially with the low rpm 307. In their lies another challenge. If you only have 14" rims its hard to find a tall tire. Usually a 225/70/14 is about the best you find which is only 26.5" tall. It would work and accelerate much quicker than what you have now but the 307 won't like the interstate at 80mph as it does now. In town mileage would be better once you learn that you don't have to step on the gas pedal as hard and long to keep up with accelerating traffic. Natuarally interstate mileage would drop.

My next upgrade for that car would be headers. Again bang for the buck power and mileage. This upgrade carrys forward and can be used with a 350 or 403 if you upgrade engines in the future. My advice use several lights coats of header paint and good gaskets such as www.remflex.com so they don't rust and so that you don't have leaks. You can buy a gbody dual exhaust kit for the car from Summit or Jegs etc and have a shop install both at the same time and they can make adjustments for the header to exhaust system union. Some shops may not want to do this if you are in an area where they are very sensative about keeping the cat converter. If you want to stay legal and not use the cat you can install a removable "test pipe" the same length as your cat which would go between the header and the exhaust. This way you are just testing the car to see if the converter was partially plugged and casing your car to run poorly. Use 2.5" pipe its the same price and leaves room to flow more power without any downside. Muffler choice is your own I prefer straight thru types like walker ultra flows or magnaflows or even generic Summit or Jegs just get the biggest case that will fit and the system should include at least an H pipe. You gain performance mileage and great sound. Caution if you use to small a muff and no H or tail pipes she can be too loud. Lots of people like the sound of Flowmasters but they are often loud and tend to drone or resonate at cruise.

Last with only 90,000 miles unless you specifically find something bad or worn out I would not replace all the stock bushing etc. You will find it a waste of money for what you get and you have to pay a shop to do it. Then they need to do an alignment etc. Just do aftermarket poly end links which you can do yourself and probably are worn and maybe new shocks. When it comes to shocks don't cheap out get good stuff like Edelbrock ISAs or Billensteins. You will get way more handling improvments from getting the larger factory "F-41" sway bars front and rear which is again something you can find in a yard or on here and do yourself as a simple bolt up with nothing to screw up.