Grassroots Motorsports Magazine $2008 Challenge car ideas

[85 Cutlass Brougham]

Anyone here ever think of building a car to compete in this event? For those who don't know what it is, it is a contest in which you have to build a car for $2008 and compete in three events: Drag Race, Autocross and judged show. Any car is allowed, and parts cars are allowed too. You can even sell off parts from the car or cars used to build the vehicle as long as the sell back does not exceed the cost of the car. The last time I read about it, someone won the drag portion in a 4 door Nova that ran a 10.90 in the 1/4! You need to keep a detailed budget sheet and turn it in at the time of the contest. I like it because of the inventive vehicles people enter like the mid engined SHO powered Festiva or the SBC powered Porsche 914, 65 Mustang- 82 Supra hybrid, etc.

 

[85 Cutlass Brougham]

Since no one else posted any ideas, I'll post one of mine. The car has to handle well, brake well and be light weight in stock form to keep costs down. It also should be cheap to buy and have aftermarket support in the form of suspension and brake upgrades, parts intechangeability with junkyardable cars for improvements, and have a close to perfect weight distribution stock. This leads me to my chassis choices: 1968-73 Datsun PL510, 1970-77 Datsun 240/260z, 1983-1992 BMW E30 Chassis 318/325/M3, Mazda Miata , or a S13 Nissan 240SX. All have 4 wheel independent suspension, close to 50/50 weight distribution and are front engine/rear drive. All are either 4 wheel disc factory or easily upgraded using junkyard parts. They also all weigh no more than 2700lbs with the 510 weighing 2,000lbs stock. There are other good choices too like the DSM's with AWD and turbo or mid 90's Subaru's, or even the Fiero or MR2, but I hate working on them.

For an engine, it must either weigh around the same as the original or less with everything attached. It may also weigh more if it is shorter than the original and places more weight rearward of the front axle centerline. A manual transmission is also a must as is low purchase cost and aftermarket support. My thoughts on the engine are: 4th gen F body 3800 seires II V6 with the FWD 3800 Eaton supercharger adapted to it, Ford 4.6 DOHC V8 out of a Lincoln Mk VIII ( with Mustang T45 trans), Nissan VG30DE or VG35DE with trans out of 2wd Pathfinder, GM Ecotec 2.2 with a junkyard turbo and a trans adapter ( found a wrecked 06 Cobalt-long block is $125) for a RWD kit car, Nissan KA24DE with junkyard turbo, Mazda 13B rotary with turbo ( in lighter cars) or turbocharging a BMW E20 2.7 liter L6. I also considered the Nissan VH45DE from a Q45, but there is no available cheap option for a 5 speed.

Anyhow, these are my thoughts on the subject. Criticisms/Comments/Other ideas?

 

[motorholmes]

Ohhh...Another GRM fan! Nice to meet you. I was hoping to find some folks around here that were interested in more various types of performance other than but also including drag racing.

I have a 05 Focus ST for the autocross but I haven't been able to stray from my roots as a GM hot rodder. Thats why I'm considering building a monte for the autocross with a supercharged 4.3 vortec motor or something similar. I've never heard of aluminum heads for a 4.3, though I guess they make aluminum v6 blocks in Grand National fashion. Anyhow, with some A-arms and springs,shocks, bushings, and sway bars I think a Monte could eat up alot of the competition, especially since most front drive cars nowadays are over 3000# anyways! They sure don't have 350 horsepower!

As far as the $2008 challenge, it's too far away from Minnesota for me. It would cost me at least $2007.50 to trailer my car all the way to Florida or wherever.

Good talkin at you

 

[85 Cutlass Brougham]

Yeah, I live in FL and am a half time college student (Mechanical Engineering), so money is tight. Be that as it may, I still wound up doing some research today as it was my day off. Research for me is a trip to the junkyard, tape measure and a sheet of paper in hand to determine what will physically fit-and what is available. My DOHC V8 idea washed out due to space restrictions, but I did find 4 HO 302's that could be mine for under $300 with everything ( wiring, ECU, accessories, etc). I also found a South African company that makes an adapter to mate the BMW transmission with the Ford Windsor V8. ( I really want to do a E30 BMW!) I also found 2 BMW 325's for sale on Craigslist for $600 obo for the pair ....if only I had the space and a little spare cash I would at least buy that. The 302 in Fox platform dress, is only around 100-120lbs more than the BMW M20 L6 it would replace, and the weight would be around 4-6 inches further rearwards in the chassis than the L6 is, thus off setting some of the additional weight. There are also cheap brake upgrades for this chassis using pieces from the later E36 chassis 3 series and Z3, and the differential from a 5 series will also interchange ( from what I have read). The nice thing about BMW's is that no one really knows anything about them. Very few are hot rodded in any real way, so the parts go largely un-pulled at the U pull it yards around here. Plus, the 325es, 325is, and 318is all came with factory Recaro seats and 4 wheel discs with optional ABS, leaving 2 things I do not absolutely have to change.

I also found that BMW puts it's VSS in the differential, not the transmission tailshaft. This means I can keep the BMW VSS to run the cruise control and speedo while the Ford VSS can run the ECU ( either EEC IV or Megasquirt) if necessary. This way, BMW controls all of the car's systems not related to engine management and the engine's spark and fuel can be run independently. This gives me the ability to easily keep the A/C, cruise control and gauges without having to change much. All I have to do is adapt the systems to work together (Ford compressor clutch wired to BMW Controls, hybrid hoses for fuel, A/C, P/S, Ford TPS sending signal to BMW ECU for cruise, etc) I kind of proved feasibility today--now I need to have the time, money, and space to actually try it.

The biggest negatives with a G body for auto-x are weight, size and weight distribution. The live axle does not help matters either when it comes to transient handling. Unfortunately, the G body with a V8 has a 60/40 weight distribution ( The BMW E30 is 53/47 and the s13 240sx is 50/50 for comparison), and that requires 350lbs be shifted to get it to the optimal 50/50 ( most G body V8 cars weigh around 3500lbs unless you gut them). It can be done, and I am one of the guys who sets their cars up more for handling than drag racing. Mine handles pretty well for what it is, but would be seriously out classed on an auto-x by something like a properly set up EG Civic or a Mazdaspeed Miata. You need some pretty serious tires to overcome all of the weight of the G body if you are going to race against a lighter, smaller car. Yeah, most newer cars are over weight, but most can overcome that with removal of airbags and related SRS equipment along with extra sound deadener, etc. A g body is not that simple to loose weight with as it does not have the same amount of unnecessary equipment from the factory as newer cars do.

 

[motorholmes]

I'm showing a v6 monte at 3160# dry.
I would think if you even just moved the battery you'd have close to 50/50 or 55/45

The live axle at least has roll camber. I think the Bimmer has no camber gain and needs shims. Correct me if I'm wrong

 

[85 Cutlass Brougham]

You may be right. I have yet to study it's rear suspension in detail. I am not a big fan of the semi-trailing arm design that they used until the E36 3 series came about in around 1992. I prefer the multi-link type as it tends to provide better alignment if set up right. The S13/S14 (88-98) 240SX uses a good multi-link and is an overall better car to start with, but I just like the look of the BMW better. The Nissan shares it's basic chassis development with the Z32 300zx and the R31-34 Skyline, and many of the parts from the higher line cars are a bolt in for the 240sx.

Overall, I really just want to experiment with something new to me. I have gotten bored of the same old cars that everyone else messes with and want to blaze my own trail. Don't get me wrong, I like my G body. I like it because it is stupid easy to do things with and I can bolt it together with common parts. I tend to like different cars for different reasons and do not stick to one design philosophy for everything I do. Right now I own an AMC Spirit and drive a Nissan truck every day-so you can see I have no brand loyalty.

As for V6 G bodies, my Cutlass was 3300lbs with the V6 according to the registration. Granted it's a Brougham and not a stripped down model like a base V6 Monte would be, but it only had P/S, P/B, A/C, and power seat. It probably has extra sound deadener too, so I guess it could make up the 150+lb difference. Building a V6 to a decent power level is rather pricey. One option using factory parts may be the 3800 from a 96-02 F body with the supercharger from a FWD 3800 Bonneville SSEi, etc. You would have to run a coolant crossover tube from a FWD car and a short 90 degree hose to bring the thermostat water inlet to the front of the engine, but that is probably the biggest hurdle in adapting the FWD 3800 parts to the RWD engine. A stand alone would be advisable to eliminate the need for the VSS signal and GM's "Pass-Key" anti-theft system.

 

[motorholmes]

I know what you mean. I really want to get a '96 or so Miata, but wouldn't take it to the autocross because there's already 27 of them there! I'd end up racing my Focus instead just to have something a little different.

That's why I want to learn how to weld and fabricate my own suspension parts. If you can do that the sky's the limit. I just got a full sized torch and cut apart an old rusty pickup to make a trailer out of the box. That's my first project. I can't wait to get into motorsports stuff.

I even saw a GIRL once who had fabricated her own intake for an older straight 6 Nissan (well, not fabricated, modified from an entirely different unit) Now THAT was cool. She said you just couldn't find the intake she wanted. That was ONE PHAT car. Looked just like a Sylvia.

 

[85 Cutlass Brougham]

I have had a thing for small cars for a while now. I used to drive a beat up 95 Nissan Sentra and the thing handled very well. I miss that car-especially now that I deliver pizza again. It weighed 2300lbs and was not much smaller than the BMW 318/325/M3 I want, and not much lighter either. In fact, the 4 cyl version of the BMW weighs about the same as a Sentra SE-R from the 90's. In a way, the BMW would be it's replacement, only with rear wheel drive, the sunroof I have always wanted, and the possibility of having some real power. If my other two cars were not in pieces I would probably try to buy the 2 on Craigslist for $600 and just make one usable car.

My ultimate small car would be one of the old Austin/Morris/ Leyland/Rover Mini Coopers. I can't really afford one, but they just look like a lot of fun to toss around! I also love the old Datsun 510 from the late 60's/early 70's, but again run into cost as they are in no way cheap.

Sorry, that wasn't on topic, but I am over tired and not thinking too straight...

 

[KMac]

I will be there this year. Building a 93 crx si. right now i have the choice of two different bodies to go with and am thinking about a turbo kit for it. Some other friends of mine are doing a 2nd gen rx-7 (was there last year for Clemson Sports Car Club) but they put a massive turbo on it this year and the other group is doing a 2nd gen rx-7 as well but its for the newbies in the club to mess with. Can't wait to go to the challenge this year. Did any of you go last year?

 

[85 Cutlass Brougham]

I've never gone, but always wanted to. I have a serious lack of funds problem when it comes to doing almost anything other than the basics. That's why I am back in school, hoping to get a better job/life when I get out. I figure though, that if I can get my Cutlass done to a point of usability, and sell my AMC after I assemble it, I should be able to find a way to build something for next year's contest. Unfortunately, I can't build a car dedicated to just the contest. It will have to be built with every day usability in mind as I cannot dedicate that kind of money to a vehicle that is optimized for just one three day event and good for little else. Even so, I believe I can build at least a low 12 second car with good handling for $2,000, but it will have to have sound deadening, A/C etc. for it's future use as a pizza delivery car while I am in school. I may not put all of the options together as part of the budget, but I will leave most of the parts in place so I can quickly convert it to daily driver status once the competition is done. ( There is no need to put the cost of cutsom A/C lines, freon, stereo equipment, etc on the budget). The car would also have to be driven there as I have no trailer or tow vehicle.

I also may have the option of buying a friend's AWD 1g DSM automatic cheap and using it too, but I hate Mitsubishi reliability and the wiring in the car is a real mess right now. It's amazing to me that anyone would think that wire nuts and speaker wire are the right way to fix an ECU wiring harness! The previous owner did that, and also used bathroom caulk to seal the BOV to the inlet track. I don't think I have ever seen such an abuse of household hardware on a car as is in that car. If I did that car, I would likely just set it up with a Megasquirt EMS, change to an EVO III turbo, an FMIC, and the right piping, fix a few other minor issues and upgrade the brakes.