I haven't seen too many posts about cars that handle really well so I was wondering if you guys had any suggestions about what I should do with my 84 gp to make it handle as well as a honda. I plan on getting 2" front and 3" rear drop springs and gas shock but I'm not really sure where I should go to get parts. I'm pretty broke too so if there's any junkyard parts I can use to help thatd be cool
pro touring setup questions
- Thread starter Eighty4GP
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http://www.maliburacing.com/coilspring.htm
All of the front and rear coil springs are from various GM cars and will fit our g-bodies. Our cars use a double pigtail type rear spring, meaning the coils get closer at the top and bottom of the spring. If you use a single pigtail type (like the f-body) rear coil, then simply use the rubber/poly upper isolator and the spring goes right in. I had the f-body rear coil on my car at one time so I know it works.
Also, most of the coil springs listed in the chart can be bought from your local parts store new for between $50 - $60 new/pr. That's $100 - $120 for all 4 springs. Still want to mess with pulling unknown condition used and worn springs from a junkyard car? I wouldn't either. All the listed front coils and the single pigtail rear coils can be trimmed to tailor your ride height. The double pigtail coils can't.
New Bilstein shocks can be bought for an S-10/Monte Carlo SS from Autozone for $60 - $70 ea (so I've heard, not bought mine yet) and you'd be hard pressed to find a much better shock for that price. Someone may know of better prices so speak up if you do. I'd like to know myself.
If you know of any mid to late 80's IROC Camaro/GTA Firebirds in a wrecking yard, grab the steering box and front swaybar. I'd also (maybe) consider grabbing those front springs, too. The steering box will have a code on the front circular end of XH and will have a better feel than the non-IROC box but will still have the faster ratio. I've used the f-body pitman arm with mine but other say you have to use the g-body pitman for clearance reasons. The swaybar will bolt right up using the g-body u-straps and bolts and the f-body rubber bushings. It is bigger than anything you can buy at 36mm but it's also hollow and may not be as stout as a smaller (but heavier) solid bar. I bought both my steering box and swaybar from a 'yard for $75 each but prices vary. The IROC front coils are 706#/in (convertible versions are 767#/in) and even if they are worn will be much better than older and used g-body springs. With good front a-arm bushings (greasable poly's or the Global West Del-A-Lum's) they aren't as stiff in actual use as they sound. I used them for a few years in my daily driver and they wasn't as stiff as you would think. I'm actually re-using them in the 86 I'm building now.
If you run across any mid to late 80's GTA/IROC f-body wheels, you can use the 16" fronts (4 fronts needed) or I've heard you can use the rear wheels on the front with a spacer. I haven't verified this but hopefully someone who has will chime in.
As far as I know, this is about the *bestest cheapest* setup you can do on a tight budget. When you get some more money or you're ready to move up to an even better setup, call Marcus at www.scandc.com He's a really nich guy to talk to and work with and is VERY knowledgible. He can do wonders for our cars. A few guys on here are using his products (as will I when I get closer to that point in my build) and many guys on pro-touring.com which is also another good site for info.
Hope all this helps you get started in the right direction.
All of the front and rear coil springs are from various GM cars and will fit our g-bodies. Our cars use a double pigtail type rear spring, meaning the coils get closer at the top and bottom of the spring. If you use a single pigtail type (like the f-body) rear coil, then simply use the rubber/poly upper isolator and the spring goes right in. I had the f-body rear coil on my car at one time so I know it works.
Also, most of the coil springs listed in the chart can be bought from your local parts store new for between $50 - $60 new/pr. That's $100 - $120 for all 4 springs. Still want to mess with pulling unknown condition used and worn springs from a junkyard car? I wouldn't either. All the listed front coils and the single pigtail rear coils can be trimmed to tailor your ride height. The double pigtail coils can't.
New Bilstein shocks can be bought for an S-10/Monte Carlo SS from Autozone for $60 - $70 ea (so I've heard, not bought mine yet) and you'd be hard pressed to find a much better shock for that price. Someone may know of better prices so speak up if you do. I'd like to know myself.
If you know of any mid to late 80's IROC Camaro/GTA Firebirds in a wrecking yard, grab the steering box and front swaybar. I'd also (maybe) consider grabbing those front springs, too. The steering box will have a code on the front circular end of XH and will have a better feel than the non-IROC box but will still have the faster ratio. I've used the f-body pitman arm with mine but other say you have to use the g-body pitman for clearance reasons. The swaybar will bolt right up using the g-body u-straps and bolts and the f-body rubber bushings. It is bigger than anything you can buy at 36mm but it's also hollow and may not be as stout as a smaller (but heavier) solid bar. I bought both my steering box and swaybar from a 'yard for $75 each but prices vary. The IROC front coils are 706#/in (convertible versions are 767#/in) and even if they are worn will be much better than older and used g-body springs. With good front a-arm bushings (greasable poly's or the Global West Del-A-Lum's) they aren't as stiff in actual use as they sound. I used them for a few years in my daily driver and they wasn't as stiff as you would think. I'm actually re-using them in the 86 I'm building now.
If you run across any mid to late 80's GTA/IROC f-body wheels, you can use the 16" fronts (4 fronts needed) or I've heard you can use the rear wheels on the front with a spacer. I haven't verified this but hopefully someone who has will chime in.
As far as I know, this is about the *bestest cheapest* setup you can do on a tight budget. When you get some more money or you're ready to move up to an even better setup, call Marcus at www.scandc.com He's a really nich guy to talk to and work with and is VERY knowledgible. He can do wonders for our cars. A few guys on here are using his products (as will I when I get closer to that point in my build) and many guys on pro-touring.com which is also another good site for info.
Hope all this helps you get started in the right direction.
civic type cars pull .75-.85 g's in real life driving. Our boats can pull the same g forces with a little work (and only a few hundred bucks)
- tighten up the front of the frame, use all the bracing possible (check the f41 sticky for braces). Add the fatest front roll bar possible - it could be worth the investment to have a thicker bar made than is available in the aftermarket
- lighten the rear, don't box the frame in on the rear (this is different of course if you're going to take this car to a drag strip). Use the stock rear stabilizer bar or have a smaller one made (nothing less than .5")
- buy the lightest wheels and fatest tires that'll fit --- tires are the most important for turning corners --- . Low profile ones are dumb - you need some sidewall for cornering. 50 series are good. Get the widest ones that'll fit - 245's should fit with a little effort. 255's require a lot of work to fit in the front. if you put larger rear tires than front youre adding more grip (more cornering force) to the outside rear tire- remember these cars have too much grip on the outside rear in a turn in the first place, so get the same size all around (also for rotating reasons).
- steering box
- hard shocks
- alignment:
negative camber(allows for the inside/cornering tire to have a bigger contact patch to the road)
positive caster (front top spindle tilts rearward), a similar effect of more negative camber in a roll
slight toe out (unless you do a lot of highway miles)
it is possible to adjust bump steer to incline to toe out for more handling when the suspension is rebounding, but that's a little more involved
check with your local tire shop/mechanic on what they recommend for these settings, usually less than 2-3 for the first two measurements, and less than .5" toe.
- coils: The previous post had a good write up on springs. I'd have to add coils only complement all the other pieces of the cornering formula. With a real stiff coil you'll have a quicker rebound and more response, but energy is lost when the coils are too stiff. You should do fine with stock coils by just cutting them a half or full coil, see if a full coil is low enough for your desired ride height (if not you need stiffer coils). It just depends on your driving style, do you like the front end to have real aggressive response, or do you like to have a decent ride without jarring your skeleton. (I prefer the aggressive coil) Note steering response is not the same as steering ability
- bushings, nice new urethane ones - keep these oiled! or they'll end up like the average rubber bushing after a couple years.
- you tighten up the front enough, don't worry about weight bias, it's b.s. for an average street driven car
- coil overs are not needed, but they'll give an edge on a car that really needs to turn. The more vertical the spring is to the direction the car is moving, the more effective. Problem here is you see minimal gains if the shock is within 30 degrees of being perpindicular to the cars travel. So it's basically more b.s.
A lot of people talk about these car's steering geometry being bad. That's the beauty of double a arms is you can change that geometry, it's the whole point around having double a arms. The exact 4 link and suspension up front in g bodies have been proven to pull 1G in a track setting (this is different than a skidpad where understeering cars usually have higher numbers i.e. civics). All you have to do is add the right pieces and adjust them properly and you've got a helluva performing machine
- tighten up the front of the frame, use all the bracing possible (check the f41 sticky for braces). Add the fatest front roll bar possible - it could be worth the investment to have a thicker bar made than is available in the aftermarket
- lighten the rear, don't box the frame in on the rear (this is different of course if you're going to take this car to a drag strip). Use the stock rear stabilizer bar or have a smaller one made (nothing less than .5")
- buy the lightest wheels and fatest tires that'll fit --- tires are the most important for turning corners --- . Low profile ones are dumb - you need some sidewall for cornering. 50 series are good. Get the widest ones that'll fit - 245's should fit with a little effort. 255's require a lot of work to fit in the front. if you put larger rear tires than front youre adding more grip (more cornering force) to the outside rear tire- remember these cars have too much grip on the outside rear in a turn in the first place, so get the same size all around (also for rotating reasons).
- steering box
- hard shocks
- alignment:
negative camber(allows for the inside/cornering tire to have a bigger contact patch to the road)
positive caster (front top spindle tilts rearward), a similar effect of more negative camber in a roll
slight toe out (unless you do a lot of highway miles)
it is possible to adjust bump steer to incline to toe out for more handling when the suspension is rebounding, but that's a little more involved
check with your local tire shop/mechanic on what they recommend for these settings, usually less than 2-3 for the first two measurements, and less than .5" toe.
- coils: The previous post had a good write up on springs. I'd have to add coils only complement all the other pieces of the cornering formula. With a real stiff coil you'll have a quicker rebound and more response, but energy is lost when the coils are too stiff. You should do fine with stock coils by just cutting them a half or full coil, see if a full coil is low enough for your desired ride height (if not you need stiffer coils). It just depends on your driving style, do you like the front end to have real aggressive response, or do you like to have a decent ride without jarring your skeleton. (I prefer the aggressive coil) Note steering response is not the same as steering ability
- bushings, nice new urethane ones - keep these oiled! or they'll end up like the average rubber bushing after a couple years.
- you tighten up the front enough, don't worry about weight bias, it's b.s. for an average street driven car
- coil overs are not needed, but they'll give an edge on a car that really needs to turn. The more vertical the spring is to the direction the car is moving, the more effective. Problem here is you see minimal gains if the shock is within 30 degrees of being perpindicular to the cars travel. So it's basically more b.s.
A lot of people talk about these car's steering geometry being bad. That's the beauty of double a arms is you can change that geometry, it's the whole point around having double a arms. The exact 4 link and suspension up front in g bodies have been proven to pull 1G in a track setting (this is different than a skidpad where understeering cars usually have higher numbers i.e. civics). All you have to do is add the right pieces and adjust them properly and you've got a helluva performing machine
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