Why do so many frown upon swapping Chevy engines into Olds?

[CHRIS.O]

Re: Why do so many frown upon swapping Chevy engines into Ol

Two different shops did the machine work. The olds needed line honed. The Chevy did not. The Chevy also did not need decked. Couple hundred right there. I know I got into money when I had to start buying oil pans and sheet metal for the engine. The parts are where it was even pricier because I couldn't find cost effective used Olds parts. People treated them as gold. My intake for my Chevy was 25 dollars, my headers were 150 for hedman. My oldsmobile headers were 600. I'm not arguing that one is better than the other but I have never seen an Olds ever cost less, especially when you buy used. I had about 400 into machine work on the Chevy by a quality machine shop. The other guy who did the olds was kind of a local olds guru so I went to him, I figured having an olds guru do it was worth the money. I believe you guys when you say it is the same price but where are you getting your parts and how are you doing it? My core chevy core cost 100 bucks. I don't think I could buy a non windowed main sbo for that. I understand machine work doesn't cost more but parts do. I'd really like to do a 400-450hp 350 olds but I just don't see how for the same price as a chevy.

 

[KrisW]

Re: Why do so many frown upon swapping Chevy engines into Ol

I buy almost 100% used parts, OEM, for my builds.

As far as the Olds "guru" that you had do the machine work, unfortunately it seems that he was more into making money than to helping you out. I said "seems" because I am not there firsthand to talk to anyone or see anything.

My oil pans are OEM. The intake, will be eBay or a swap meet. As I said, I'm on a budget. I have no doubt that you can start throwing money around at big name speed shops and get in deep with parts, but I don't do it. If I have to have headers, I'll use 2nd gen Trans Am headers for the Olds 403.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BIG-11150FLT/

They are 1 3/4 primaries, which is what I use. If they hit something in the chassis, I can make it work. Steering shafts can be moved over with u-joints to replace the rag joint, frames can be clearanced. The 2nd gen firebird motor mounts, exhaust and accessories have all worked well for me in the G-body, so this ought to be close. $160.

I am using OEM block and heads, crank and rods, and the bare minimum on machining. I do not routinely have to deck the block for my Buick/Olds engines, over half of my chevy blocks have needed it. Again, I think your guru may have either needed the money, or might have feared some sort of backlash if everything didn't go right, so rather than do it like I do, everything got reset to zero. IF you do all that machining to a chevy block it will cost a lot too.

Most of the sourcing you need to do if you want a 400-500HP Olds budget build up is going to involve lots of looking and lurking. Spending hours in old wrecking yards, and all that jazz. I found a Buick guy in Arizona that sells V8's for 350 bucks complete, strapped to a pallet. That's the kind of thing you have to find so that you can start with what you want. A non windowed block is preferred, yes. Have you ever broken a windowed block? With ARP main studs (which I run on every engine I build) you are doing well, and if you actually buy a stud girdle, the block is going to be okay. I have yet to break an Olds block, but I am sure someone around here has. It just hasn't happened to me. The money I save at the machine shop can easily buy that girdle.

Its really up to you. If you just look around, you can find everything you need.

 

[G-Body_Vet]

Re: Why do so many frown upon swapping Chevy engines into Ol

I don't want to sway too far off point from the original topic but I don't think most people realize what you're really going to spend on a complete quality rebuild. Mine is obviously a Pontiac, but machine work is machine work on everything.

I don't know about you guys....or your areas anyway, but I really had to do some footwork to find a machine shop willing to do the kind of build I wanted. Not to mention that most of the shops I went to were either rude, had insane prices (or hidden costs) for work, or just didn't want to discuss my goals. The first place I went to didn't even want to talk about anything performance and treated me like I was the *******.

Unless you work at a machine shop or have a buddy there, I don't think there's a cheap way to build anything. You can't expect a blueprint quality engine on a beer budget and that's just the reality behind it. A machinist that's willing to discuss options and work with you on what you have in mind is a big deal too. Sure I could have taken a few short cuts or done some things differently to save a few bucks but it's not what I wanted to do. I wanted quality, performance and longevity out of this engine when it's done. There's no guess work and it's being built 100% for my application. That's a custom ground cam and custom cut forged pistons at prices comparable to off-the shelf parts....for a Pontiac anyway.

Some of my costs:
-running Pontiac 455, $500
-Disassembly, free by me!
-Thermal clean, mag, sonic check & inspection, $205
-Line hone mains, $185
-Bore cylinder & deck block (final hone will be done with torque plates), $280
-Turn crank (includes rod journals once I buy rods).010, $200

A different guy did my heads and I have somewhere around a grand in them. That's buying the 6X-4 cores, SS valves, bowl work, gasket matching, bronze guides, springs, viton seals, minor clean-up milling, tumble cleaning, and CC'ing. In all honesty I may have been better off going with aluminum in the end....but oh well.

After I had my block thermal cleaned and sonic tested for cracks, I received a report containing all of the block info:


1976 Pontiac 455
Block Casting 500813
VIN 26X115915
Casting Date K085 Nov. 8, 1975
Engine Code Y4 0135768


Main Bearing Housing Bore Data

Main Standard Spec is 3.4380 – 3.4390, 3.438 preferred
1 3.4398
2 3.4404
3 3.4397
4 3.4395
5 3.4385

Main bearing bores are in acceptable alignment. Most bores are above size limit,
and several are out of round. Block will require line bore/hone to restore proper
size.

Cylinder Bore Data

CYL 90 45 Pin
1 top 4.1546 4.1553 4.1557
mid 4.1533 4.1538 4.1534
bot 4.1537 4.1537 4.1537

2 top 4.1550 4.1547 4.1564
mid 4.1540 4.1531 4.1544
bot 4.1545 4.1528 4.1568

3 top 4.1546 4.1550 4.1562
mid 4.1531 4.1535 4.1535
bot 4.1525 4.1527 4.1550

4 top 4.1540 4.1540 4.1541
mid 4.1529 4.1526 4.1537
bot 4.1531 4.1520 4.1540

5 top 4.1563 4.1559 4.1556
mid 4.1536 4.1530 4.1542
bot 4.1530 4.1528 4.1544

6 top 4.1549 4.1544 4.1536
mid 4.1531 4.1531 4.1536
bot 4.1529 4.1529 4.1537

7 top 4.1544 4.1532 4.1552
mid 4.1533 4.1528 4.1534
bot 4.1537 4.1530 4.1534

8 top 4.1549 4.1560 4.1550
mid 4.1541 4.1543 4.1537
bot 4.1541 4.1542 4.1538


Cylinder Wall Thickness
Cyl Inboard Thrust Outboard Thrust Min. Side Thickness
1 top .280 .290 .212
mid .286 .296

2 top .335 .270 .209
mid .270 .251

3 top .290 .267 .216
mid .286 .241

4 top .306 .254 .209
mid .301 .238

5 top .290 .270 .206
mid .302 .248

6 top .296 .254 .208
mid .293 .248

7 top .290 .286 .219
bot .283 .267

8 top .306 .267 .209
mid .315 .254

Engine block has minor cylinder wear, and very good wall thickness. Many bore sizes are possible with this block. Should there ever be a need, this block can safely go .060 over. An overbore of .030, or even .020, would be acceptable. A final bore size of 4.165 (+.015) may be possible, and though it would probably require a custom piston, it may yield the best ring selection.

Block deck height is approximately square, with the standard being 10.25. The block will require decking in order to clean up some erosion present in coolant hole areas. The final deck height will have to be determined at the time it is decked.

This is a very sound block, ideal for many types of performance usage. I would recommend line boring/honing the main bearing bores, decking the block, boring and honing with a torque plate and would also suggest the installation of main bearing studs as a top option.

In the end, the difference is well worth it to me and I know exactly what I've had done. I could have gone the cheap route and just ran the engine for what it was like I've done in the past. We're talking about an engine that's 37 years old though. We're looking at a ton of variables that affect reliability so I wanted a complete rebuild.

 

[KrisW]

Re: Why do so many frown upon swapping Chevy engines into Ol

I think what you have added is, in fact, quite relevant to the discussion at hand.

Your statements about the machining are exactly the point I was making. I mostly have done Buick/Olds engines, and the Pontiac stuff I have helped others on were not my builds.

As far as the machining goes, with the measurements you got from the shop, I would not have decked the engine. The coolant holes that have the slight damage, I usually repair in a different fashion if I have that. Those statements indicated a definite need for the align-bore, but I would also not have done a full bore on the cylinders. I probably would have taken a heavy hone and gotten the .015 that he suggested. I can do the hone myself usually with pretty respectable results.

I'm not criticizing your build even one bit. You built what you wanted and it is absolutely beautiful. You should be proud. I was just throwing out there what I would have done, because I stick to a very strict budget.

Your cylinder head choice is the preferred budget head, and I would have attempted all the porting myself, with just the valve reconditioning at the guides and seats left to the machine shop. All the rest I try to do myself in the garage.

Thanks for the insights!

 

[G-Body_Vet]

Re: Why do so many frown upon swapping Chevy engines into Ol

One thing to really point out here is that this is my first complete, real rebuild. I've been wrenching forever but never got into engine internals at this level. I'm sure I'm competent enough to do most of this, but as hard as it was to find this engine I didn't want to screw it up in the learning process. Nonetheless, I think it gives guys a good idea what you'd spend if you're not experienced in engine building. You can read all day, bench race & bs with the best of 'em, but putting it into practice is a different ballgame.

In hindsight, I probably should have just stroked a 400 instead. I would have had a stronger block, smaller mains, higher rpm capability & more cubes. On another note, I didn't project a budget and haven't been in a hurry. It's been at the shop for a year and we're just doing a little at a time as I can afford it. Luckily the shop is cool with going this route.

I think it's good to get a few different angles on how to go about building something anyway. Part of the process is a confidence building exercise once it's complete. I'll surely be getting more involved the next time around!

And good luck to the OP!

 

[V6UnderPressure]

Re: Why do so many frown upon swapping Chevy engines into Ol

The vortecs aren't lt engines. There would be no MAJOR difference between the actual engine block of a vortec and an older gen 1 except fuel pump boss not being drilled for a mechanical fuel pump. You can put your gen 1 timing cover on it, a one piece rear seal oil pan, and whatever sbc heads you wanted to. Although unless you had some type of aftermarket or modded head I would use the vortec heads that come on the vortec engines. You will find them in chevy trucks and vans. I don't believe they ever put a vortec in a car, not that I am aware of anyway. It will bolt up just fine to an older trans. I have a one piece rear main seal block sitting in my 86 chevy right now with an old th 350. Like I said before, the actual vortec blocks will be ready for a roller cam, and if you bought a complete one out of a junk yard you would have everything you need even the roller lifters. It is really the best way to go in my opinion.

What year did Vortec's start coming out? Are there better ones out there than others? I thought I read some were 327ci, and some were 350ci, etc. Is it possible to get the fuel pump boss drilled? Secondly, will the engine mounts bolt up the same as a gen 1. Are there any other major differences? It sounds like the fit is too good to be true.

 

[-83MONTESS-]

Re: Why do so many frown upon swapping Chevy engines into Ol

What year did Vortec's start coming out? Are there better ones out there than others? I thought I read some were 327ci, and some were 350ci, etc. Is it possible to get the fuel pump boss drilled? Secondly, will the engine mounts bolt up the same as a gen 1. Are there any other major differences? It sounds like the fit is too good to be true.

The vortecs use the same mounts as the Gen 1's do as far as I know. As far as fuel pump boss, I think you would be further ahead to go with an electric setup. And there wasnt a 327 vortec made. It was 5.3L 325 cubic inches. Nearly EVERYONE I know calls them a 327, kinda like how everyone calls the 302 Furd a 5.0 when its not :lol: IMO a vortec is the best chevy engine to go with besides the LS engines obviously but im always low on cash so I will just go with a vortec headed 400

 

[CHRIS.O]

Re: Why do so many frown upon swapping Chevy engines into Ol

V6UnderPressure,
The vortec engines we are talking about are still a gen 1. Just not an ancient 1968 gen 1. Were not talking about LS vortecs. I don't see why you couldn't have it drilled out but like 83montess said, an electric fuel pump is the way to go. It isn't a big deal to get an inline fuel pump anyway, you are looking at maybe 90 bucks for a good one. You could spend that on a mechanical pump. Also a lot of cams for vortec gen 1's do not even have the cam lobe on it for the fuel pump push rod to ride on. If you set a 70' block next to a 97' vortec block all bare, you wouldn't notice a difference. They are relatively the same except the vortec engines are set up for a roller cam so they will have the valley drilled for a spider and dog bones as well as have the area behind the timing chain drilled for a cam retainer. The same rotating assembly is used except it would be a one piece rear main seal, same pistons etc. Even older heads bolt on with no problems but like i had mentioned before keep the vortec heads if you bought a 350 vortec. They are better than ANY stock fuelie or whatever people use from the 60's.

 

[CHRIS.O]

Re: Why do so many frown upon swapping Chevy engines into Ol

I think the first year was 96 and I believe but am not positive that they were made until 2000. You will want to google it but I am pretty sure those are the years.

 

[V6UnderPressure]

Re: Why do so many frown upon swapping Chevy engines into Ol

Thanks for the insight guys!