Some Inconvenient Facts About An Inconvenient Truth

[85 Cutlass Brougham]

Not to mention that China uses high sulfur diesel in all of it's trucks which is as much as 10x as polluting as that used in the US and the EU. This is due to government mandated price controls on the cost of diesel in order to keep the economic engine moving which in turn forces Chinese petroleum companies to purchase low-quality base stocks to refine fuel from. Plus, with the switch in India from a heavily state controlled economy to free markets, that nation is likely to see similar economic growth given it's population size.

Also, there is the question of HOW and WHERE temperatures are being measured. Many official readings are taken at airports which are in cities. Now cities suffer from the urban heat island effect where the air temperature inside a major urban area can be 5-10 degrees hotter than the surrounding countryside. This is due to the excess of concrete and asphalt which radiates heat back into the air during the night thus causing a somewhat misleading higher minimum temperature reading. These readings are then used by global warming alarmists to say the earth is not cooling sufficiently at night when all it is is the location of the weather station that has been affected, not the whole planet.

Now on to hydrogen. The big question with hydrogen is not weather or not the end vehicle is a gross polluter, it will not be. The bigger issue here is about the net effect of the whole hydrogen cycle from breaking the hydrogen from whatever base material you choose to use to transport to the fueling station, etc. The thing is, if you break hydrogen from water to generate it and then have it rejoin free oxygen in the atmosphere, how much energy did it take to break it initially and then what kind of energy did you use? Also, if using a base stock other than water (I.E. Hydrocarbons) what happens to the atmospheric moisture levels with all of this additional water being pumped into it? Will this not also cause significant environmental changes by increasing worldwide cloud cover? So clearly, it is not the solution unless these issues can be addressed.

Now on to Volcanism. Medium sized volcanoes like Mt Pinatubo periodically release huge amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere, sometimes equal to the total amount of mankind's production over the course of the entire industrial revolution over an extremely short period of time. Yet, following these eruptions, there is not a huge rise in global temperatures. Why? Could it not be that natural forces exist that balance the temperatures and negate the effects? Then, could it not be postulated that these same forces could also counteract the man-made production of CO2?

 

[megaladon6]

well like i said with mt st.helens you have a large output of co2 but there's also ash which blocks the sun. plus one problem is that alot of trees (which are the best way the earth eliminates co2) are being lost.
one question i have for the greenies is, if the arctic and antarctic are at 30* below freezing, how does a 2-4* increase cause them to melt? the areas they keep showing with the floes breaking off and melting and the polar bears do that EVERY year!

here's why i don't like hydrogen...by me in connecticut a H tanker just wrecked and they had to evacuate over 5000 homes. yep, that's safe. can you say "ford pinto"?

 

[85 Cutlass Brougham]

I would say yes and no on the trees. Yes, the developing world is not using it's forests responsibly. They clear cut land and do not replant it for the future. However, in the US and Europe, trees are farmed as a crop and replanted when they are removed. Thus, the amount of actual tree mass in the developed world is kept at a more constant level, even though a lot of unique species are being replaced by fast-growing varieties like southern yellow pine. Our main problem is more a loss of bio-diversity, and not so much a loss of acreage. You have to remember that in the early days of this country, there was no forest management. Fires blazed without control and ate up huge swaths of land, thus decreasing the amount of forested land. We manage the fires (which is both good and bad) and keep a larger proportion of forested land occupied by trees. We also have stopped the clear cutting of most of our virgin forests. It was not always like this though. For example: back in the later part of the 1800's, a 100 mile swath of trees was removed from the Sierra Nevada's for the sake of making square sets used in mining. That would never be allowed today.

 

[jatguit]

I have always been in the global warming camp. I am all for preventing further damage to mother earth. My wife and I have made some changes in our lifestyle accordingly.

WE have noticed many circumstances of the affects happening here and abroad.
From the ice melting in northern continents such as Greenland, that are losing their ice at alarming rates. It is irrefutable.
To the rise in temps AND most importantly the climate shifts and spikes in the weather. It is not ALL about temperatures rising but more the shifting and extremes in weather patterns with longer periods of wettness (floods) and dry (drought) periods in regions not usually seen.
Also, forest species from further southern regions, from us, are migrating further north. The Maple trees we get our sap from are migrating further north from here, they are stressed with the warmer winters, and they like the longer colder regions north of us now in Canada. There are so many signs around, not just temps.

People forget so easily previous weather periods. And around here last year in the North East we had an unbelievably warm winter, for several weeks temps WAY above normal and several days in the 50's and 60's and at least one day (that I remember in January) that was 70 degrees and I had a short sleeve shirt on all day. People were making jokes like: "this global warming is great". Unfortunately, it will not be good in the long term as people will be stressed when patterns continue and get worse. It can and will cause many global effects and remember, the world reacts globally to any types of problems whether it is fuel, food, or what have you.

Yes it would be great if we could control the developing nations, and level the playing field for everyone, but presently we can't. But we can show by example. I don't think Kyoto is perfect either, but it is a start.
We were a developing nation once, we devoured our forests and many other natural resources and realized that it is irreplaceable and to beautiful to loose it along with the creatures that inhabit it. I highly believe in being a good steward of the earth.

We already may be too late.
We may already have tipped the climate so far that it is unstoppable. There are so many areas that could release their carbon, like the permafrosts and the frozen Methane Hydrates in the ocean that could accelerate the global warming situation.

Ultimately, we are too many people inhabiting a greater shrinking world because of our existence. And all we do is leave our mess and move on to another area.

Maybe Global Warming will trim down the planets population, maybe that would be a possible outcome and a solution. If so, then what the heck "This global warming is great."
But seriously, It is happening, whether you believe we created it or not. That is indisputable. How it will affect each one of us is the question. And maybe not us, but or children and our children’s children may see and feel the outcome much more than us. I guess I selfishly look towards the future. And I try to seek out, study and understand what it all means and maybe not always perfectly or sensibly.

Maybe this is a shift, where we have moved from the Information Age (also known as the Digital Age and Wireless Age), into the Global Warming age!

 

[megaladon6]

Yes it would be great if we could c...resently we can't. But we can show by example

nothing personal, but BULLSHIT!!!! you know how we can get countries like china to pay attention to emission? stop buying stuff from them and stop encouraging companies to move there. in other words, stop kissing their *ss!!we've been kowtowing to them and kissing their *ss for 30 years, meanwhile they have screwed us over every chance they get. you know what our example to the world is? we're crybabies who expect everything to fall our way. and if it doesn't? we just cry some more. we have no political will and no balls anymore. here's a great example. when terrorists seize hostages we negotiate and let them go. when terrorists took some russians hostage ( i beleive it was in iran), you know what happened? "somebody" took some iranians "hostage" and returned them the next day....in pieces. guess what, no more taking russians hostage. when libya screwed with us in the 80's Regan bombed the sh*t out of them and they backed off. for christ's sake the 9/11 terrorists only had box cutters! you're gonna tell me that the passengers couldn't have fought back on all the planes?
and one point i keep harping on, it doesn't matter what the climate does. IT HAS HAPPENED BEFORE and the earth will correct for it. how many ice ages have there been? how many "hot ages"? so the polar bears die, hey they couldn't adapt. that's why i don't have a pet velociraptor.
our childrens children will adapt or die. it's called survival of the fittest.

well...i think i am getting a liiiittle too worked up here, sorry.

 

[R/T kota]

People forget so easily previous weather periods. And around here last year in the North East we had an unbelievably warm winter, for several weeks temps WAY above normal and several days in the 50's and 60's and at least one day (that I remember in January) that was 70 degrees and I had a short sleeve shirt on all day.

People also forget that there is a natural occurrence that happens every so many years called el nino
The last one was last winter and temperatures in a lot of north american areas were way warmer than normal.

I still remember the one before that and the winter was about the same. Way warm temps for the time of year and no snow until at least January.
But people have been brain washed by the global warming band waggoners and seem to forget that.

Another thing that people have forgotten was what they were taught in grade one. The ice that is in the north was there as a result of the last ice age. There was a time when it was not there. and then it stretched as far as mexico.It has been melting for something like 14,000 years. Why do people expect its just going to stop? Because we are here now? I don't think so.

And if you say well its melting at a faster rate, just drop an ice cube in a glass of water and watch it melt. When its gets smaller, it will start to melt faster. Its simple science people.

The scientists that say global warming is a man made problem and that we are doomed, are way out numbered by the scientists that say its natural or just plain bull sh*t and we are actually heading in to the next mini ice age.
But the environment for them at least is good business and to get the government funding, you need to create a problem. Its a scare tactic.

Remember the ozone layer scare back in the 80s? The scientist back then figured by the year 2000 we would need sunblock spf 1000 just to walk out side with out getting instant skin cancer. And then what did some one discover? It was healing its self.

They were looking at the ozone layer over the arctic and only in the summer months and in the summer months its daylight 24 hours a day. Some one then decided after many years of researching only in the summer, to look at it in the winter when its dark and discovered that ozone depletion is mainly caused by the sun.

But companies that jumped on ozone friendly products made a killing not to mention all the government funding to these scientist cost billions of dollars.

Just remember that rotting leaves and trees and even some guys compost pile generate huge amounts green house gas, and then there is the big one, our oceans.

Now I'm not saying lets go pollute the hell out of the planet but lets not jump the gun again and start making bull sh*t laws against the general public because its always the automotive sector that gets hit the hardest and are always the first to get hit.

 

[R/T kota]

they couldn't adapt. that's why i don't have a pet velociraptor.

Now that was funny :lol:

 

[Uncletruck]

The largest percentage (by quite a margin) of the high sulfur diesel fuel that generates the most pollution is not used in trucks or even in rail locomotives. It is used in ocean going ships. You know, those big freighters that are bringing us over all the junk from China.

Our planet is always constantly changing. Some things man impacts, others are just natural. Millions of years ago there was an ice age. I suppose if man were around at that time, Al Gore would insist it was caused by man. I don't mind normal progress by people to better our planet, but just can't stand fanatical politicians that try to shove their views down everyone's throats and are given prizes for it.

-UT-

 

[85 Cutlass Brougham]

I'll add another little tidbit that I heard yesterday while on my way home from College. Barac Obama wants to start an "Environmental Youth League" as one of his acts as president. My question is, will they all wear khaki clothes and green scarves and salute with a straight up left arm and hand? Environmental fascism is coming soon to a ballot box near you! I just wonder what Orwellian tasks they will be charged with carrying out? Will they be sent to make sure everyone is living cleanly and be told to report on those who do not conform? I may be wrong, but such things bring to mind the Hitler Youth, and similar organizations that are prevalent in other totalitarian states. ( I would have used the Soviet equivalent, or the one in "1984", but I could not remember the names--and yes, this is meant to be taken as a semi-sarcastic post... )

(I just finished reading Aldous Huxley's "A Brave New World" and am working on George Orwell's "1984" right now.)

 

[jatguit]

Yes it would be great if we could c...resently we can't. But we can show by example

nothing personal, but BULLSHIT!!!! you know how we can get countries like china to pay attention to emission? stop buying stuff from them and stop encouraging companies to move there. in other words, stop kissing their *ss!!we've been kowtowing to them and kissing their *ss for 30 years, meanwhile they have screwed us over every chance they get. you know what our example to the world is? we're crybabies who expect everything to fall our way. and if it doesn't? we just cry some more. we have no political will and no balls anymore. here's a great example. when terrorists seize hostages we negotiate and let them go. when terrorists took some russians hostage ( i beleive it was in iran), you know what happened? "somebody" took some iranians "hostage" and returned them the next day....in pieces. guess what, no more taking russians hostage. when libya screwed with us in the 80's Regan bombed the sh*t out of them and they backed off. for christ's sake the 9/11 terrorists only had box cutters! you're gonna tell me that the passengers couldn't have fought back on all the planes?
and one point i keep harping on, it doesn't matter what the climate does. IT HAS HAPPENED BEFORE and the earth will correct for it. how many ice ages have there been? how many "hot ages"? so the polar bears die, hey they couldn't adapt. that's why i don't have a pet velociraptor.
our childrens children will adapt or die. it's called survival of the fittest.

I agree that we should stop buying stuff from China, and my wife and I make a concerted effort not to. But it is next to impossible to do that completely anymore. Everyone needs to be on board. Go ahead, try to convince people. I inform when It is appropriate. The fact is America is to addicted to CHEAP chinese products in this free market economy, and our government won't put any restrictions on them, thank you Pres. Bush and congress.

And it does matter what the climate does. The outcomes could be catastrophic, causing many rippling colapses at all levels. We have seen how fragile we are with rising fuel prices and the Lending market colapse. These are but a mere pittance to what cold happen under G.W..Sure climate changes has happened many many years before and the big debate is if we started this one, and I believe it is obvious we have and we now have a chance to reverse our affects. I am not sure how you think the earth will correct for it, the earth won't automatically correct itself other than making life on earth more unbearable for all. I don't think it will be the strongest that survive, but the ones that had the foresight to plan and react. The Polar bears will become a metaphor of ourselves, it is one of many signs that should be heeded, and not ignored.