500 Caddy/Monte Clip into El Camino

Status
Not open for further replies.

gbodyaddict

Apprentice
Dec 9, 2008
61
0
0
Oakland, Ca (Bay Area)
Doober said:
That's my thought as well on emissions testing. I already have a '78 that I plan on putting the drivetrain in, but I need to take care of a couple issues with the body (1 spot on the firewall is my main concern, also a little work in the RF door jamb, pass. front floorboard, and lower left a-pillar), mainly body mounts and cleaning/painting the frame. I also have to get new fuel/brake lines for it... it's basically a shell right now, the interior needs to be put back together also.
http://s302.photobucket.com/albums/nn11 ... ?start=all
DSC07674-1.jpg

what a beauty
 

Mike P

Master Mechanic
Aug 7, 2009
446
208
43
Arizona
I found out a couple of things over the last couple of weeks, one is they are now using 10% ethanol here year around now. The cars that I have never had any vapor lock/heat soak problems with don’t like it very much, especially the heat soak thing. It hasn’t been bad enough so far to leave me walking, but it is aggravating. I think it’s a combination of the heat (a tad over 100 degrees) living 4500 feet and the poor gas. I remember reading a while back that they are proposing an even higher percentage of ethanol so I suspect things will only get worse.

Anyway this lead me to start considering what besides the obvious things like fuel line routing, 1” Phenolic spacer and good fuel pump(s) I would need for this project. One of the almost sure cures I’ve used in the past is to run a return line to the tank so the fuel is constantly in motion and doesn’t have a chance to heat soak

I’m going to rebuild and use the original Q Jet from the Caddy so I took a look at it. One thing I had never really noticed on these before is that many have an aluminum soft plug located in a cast boss at the front of the filter housing.

This got me thinking that it would be an ideal place to put a fitting for a return line. I’m planning on running an electric pump located at the tank in conjunction with a stock mechanical pump on the engine. My thought is even in a situation where the engine is shut off and the fuel in the lines heat soaks, running the electric pump for a few seconds should clear any vapor and hot fuel from the line clear to the carburetor.

I went ahead and drilled an 1/8” hole in the plug and used a small body work slide hammer to pop out the plug. The resulting hole was just right to run a 1/4” pipe tap thru without any further drilling.


Plug.jpg





Plugremoved.jpg




A few fittings and I had it set up to run the line back to the tank.

The real key to making this work is to restrict the fuel in the return line so that the fuel pressure remains high enough to feed the carburetor but passes enough fuel to prevent the fuel from staying in heated areas too long to vapor lock. I’ve had good luck using a restrictor with a 7/64” hole in the past so this is going to be my starting point.

What I did was to tap the inside of the of the 1/4" pipe used to connect the two 90 degree fitting for 1/8” pipe thread. I then took a recessed 1/8” pipe plug and drilled the 7/64” hole thru the center of it and screwed it into the threads on the inside of the pipe. If I have to fine tune it with a bigger or small hole, the recessed hex on the plug makes it easy to remove and replace.

As it stands right now, I’m planning on running a new 3/8” fuel line from the tank to the fuel pump as the Cadillac engine has the pump on the driver’s side instead of the passenger side as the El Camino is currently set up for. I’ll probably use the existing 5/16” fuel line that used to be the supply line as the return line and route it to the vent
fitting in the sending unit. A vented gas cap should be the only other thing I’ll need.
bypassfittings.jpg



Piperestrictor.jpg
 

dogsht

Royal Smart Person
Nov 11, 2008
2,003
9
36
Dayton, OH
Mike I have to give you credit for being pro active and being creative. One problem with your plan is that their is no way to regulate the fuel pressure into the carb and Q-jets are more pressure sensative not only to working correctly but to failure and then needing a rebuild from being overpressurised. I hope you are not offended if I suggest a rethink. Here is what I did and why. I used a fuel tank from a Grand National as it has the hanger & sending unit for an in-tank electric pump as well as a baffle to keep your pump from cavitating such as hard cornering or acceleration when your fuel is low. Its also a direct drop in. If you can't find a used tank from an 84 thru 87 turbo Buick or a 4.3 tbi Monte Carlo you can get a brand new tank & hanger/sending unit as they are reasonably priced. Check out www.ebaymotors.com just do a search for Grand National fuel tanks. You will also need some 3/8" fuel line. I bought a roll of aluminum line from Jegs as it was cheap and you can bend it to fit. Steel is better & safer but requires a bender and is more expensive. I only used it for the supply and used the old supply for a return. You would also need a return style fuel pressure regulator. I used Malory 4309 you can see it at Summit or Jegs. It has three ports one for fuel in one for fuel out to the carb and another I used to a line with a fuel pressure guage. I ran the fuel pressure guage so that I could mount it under a windshield wiper to see when I do a long wot run to see if my pump is keeping up and or if my return was causing a pressure spike. When I don't want to see it I tuck it back under the hood for discrete theft vandalism control or to see it from under the hood. I used an electric choke Cadillac 800cfm Q-jet with the pressure regulated to 5 1/4 lbs. Pump & carb handled long wot blasts and kept pressure steady. Car weighed 3,840 with me fuel full size spare etc and ran 12.5 at 110 mph. Never had a heat issue even in start stop traffic in august heat. This car was forced into being a daily driver for several months. It always has cold fresh fuel from the tank as the pump just loops if to the regulator and back around to the tank with the carb only takeing off what it needs. www.racetronix.com has a pretty much drop in ready hi performance Walbro pump for this. Just scrowl down to Buick GN and click the link. Oh yea for an inexpensive fuel filter I just went to the local autoparts and got an inline filter for a early 90s 350tpi Camaro. Don't use the Q-jet filter.

This system is just like you would get on a new Vette only instead of a fuel rail & return with pressure regulator you have a return style fuel regulator and carb. Its quiet should live a regular long life like any new car and is safe as their is no out of tank gravity fed electric pump hanging between your tank and bumper. You can buy a mechanical pump block off from any of the vendors. If you can find a used tank etc its also cheaper than a complete out of tank system with sump or cell. Old school cars never had this option as they didn't have baffled tanks with intank hanger/sending units so they impravised with the out of tank electric setups.
 

Mike P

Master Mechanic
Aug 7, 2009
446
208
43
Arizona
)You bring up some good points Vern and I’d like to address them, NOT in anyway to get into a pissing contest but to see if you see any flaws in my reasoning.

I’m first to admit return system I’m building is overkill for almost any other place in the country. We have days on end of over 100 degrees, are at 4500 altitude and the fuel quality has gone down (and will probably continue to do so). I’m using this type of system based on some hard lessons I’ve learned over the years fighting vapor lock/heat soak problems in modifed cars. This particular system is a variation I have successfully run on a couple of cars over the years.

There are a couple of methods that can be used to prevent fuel from vapor locking (on a running car) or boiling in the line at engine shut off (heat soak). One is to increase the pressure of the fuel in the line . The other is to keep the fuel cool (fuel line routing and or keeping the fuel moving throughout the system to prevent it from absorbing heat). You can also run a combination of the 2, which sounds like the system you're using with an in tank pump and return line.

Picking the inlet of the carburetor as the transition point between the fuel supply side and return side rather than say using a fuel pump with a built in return line or a Chrysler type filter with provisions for a return line should insure cool fuel all the way to the carb rather than just to the pump or wherever the filter happens to be located.

I may not have been clear in my first post but his system is actually low pressure probably in the 4 ½-5 pound range at the needle (so I shouldn’t have any worries about over pressurizing the carb. The pump I’ll be using at the tank will be an external in line unit rated at 4-5 pounds and then what ever the stock style engine mounted pump produces. There are several reasons for the supply pump at the tank; it will help provide an adequate supply of fuel to the mechanical pump, it should help expel any hot fuel/and or vapor from the supply line to the return line prior to startup, it should also make it easier to start if I end up letting it sit for a couple of months without using it.

As far a regulating the fuel pressure at the carb, that is the purpose of the restrictor plug that screws into the pipe. The maximum pressure of the system will be determined by the stronger of the 2 fuel pumps (which in this case should be the mechanical pump on the engine and I’m guessing that will be in the 5-6 pound range). The size of the restrictor hole controls the amount of fuel bypassed and the pressure retained in the supply side of the system. The smaller the hole the less fuel is bypassed but the more pressure is retained at the carb. I have tried adjustable fuel regulators on the return line years ago but they proved to be troublesome and at this time I prefer a fixed restrictor. As I mentioned the 7/64” restrictor hole size is probably a starting point …..it’s not a size I pulled out of the air, it is the size of the restrictor I found worked best on the last system of this type I built. It should only drop the pressure by a little less than a pound but there are too many unknowns at this point to say for sure. Making a new restrictor of a different size only take a couple of minuets with plugs I already stock and about another 5 minuets to install.

As far as tank and fuel lines, I will be buying a new tank but as far as I know the El Camino tank is unique to the G Body’s as the fill tube is at the side instead of the rear. I like the idea of the redundant fuel pumps as that is one area that should never leave me walking home and if a pump does go out I don’t have to drop the tank to replace it I will be running a new 3/8” steel fuel line from the tank. I do have the benders and I usually buy the line in bulk rolls so I don’t have to do any slices. I know the stock senders only have a 5/16” line into the tank, but hopefully the electric pump at the tank will make up for that and prevent any starvation problems.

LOL On a side note, Once upon a time I got the brilliant idea to run a 1/2” aluminum fuel line on a street car out here turned out to be the worst vapor locking problems I ever had. Basically the real problem turned out to be that with a 1/2" column of fuel it was moving so slowly thru the system that it had a lot of time to pick up heat on its way to the carburetors.

This is definitely a function over form setup and I’m not real wild about the look of the bulky fittings. I am contemplating having the fittings powder coated either engine color or semi-gloss black to make them less noticeable but will see what happens when I get to that point.

By the way, I don't suppose you could show a picture of the electric choke setup on on your Q Jet. The original carb I have is still setup for the heat stove in the intake. You have me wondering if I can retro fit the electric choke from one of the spare Q Jets I have laying around.


bypassfittingsrestrictor.jpg
 

drknow90rs

Greasemonkey
Aug 12, 2009
117
0
0
Wittmann, AZ
Mike P: Where in AZ do you live? Interesting project!!
 

01GPGT

Apprentice
Jul 16, 2008
50
1
0
i ran in to the same problem with my 1988 Dodge Diplomat. it ran fine with the 2bbl. when i put a 4bbl on it it started having issues with vapor lock. i put in a holley FPR right after the pump so it still only had one line going to the carb. it made a world of diffrence with warm starts :)
 

Mike P

Master Mechanic
Aug 7, 2009
446
208
43
Arizona
drknow90rs I’ve been up to Wittman on the bike, nice area. I’ve got a friend in Phoenix that I visit occasionally and we’ve ridden over a few times (if I go up in the summer time I usually cheat and trailer the bike up and back to Phoenix LOL). Something this build will be expected to do on occasion.

I live down in the Sierra Vista it's a neat area but some interesting challenges in building year around daily drivers. As I mentioned there is the altitude and the heat in the summer time. In addition to that I live in a low spot outside of town, in the winter time it's not unusual to the temperature to be 15 degrees when I leave for work (we usually have only have a couple of sub zero days a year) and high 60s or more when I go home.

Maybe this will help explain some of my reasoning on why I do things the way I do on my builds. This is going to be a year round daily driver in every sense and based on my track record it will probably accumulate 100,000+ miles over the next several years. It will also be making a few 4000 mile (round trip) vacation trips back to the mid west.

Dependability and serviceability are probably the 2 highest things on the list and I usually build for the worst case scenario (picture a long steep mountain on a 110 degree day at 80 MPH with the AC on). Additionally out here in the west it is not unusual on a trip to be 75-100 miles in either direction away from any type of town, service station etc. One of the reasons I would kind of shy away from the tank Blake mentions is because from what I’ve found so far it’s only available in 17 gallon versions where I can get the a 22 gallon tank for the non-in tank applications. Plus I really just don’t want an in tank pump setup (even a factory setup) simply from a serviceability standpoint.

Wherever possible I try to stay away from aftermarket parts in the charging, fuel and ignition systems. My reasoning is simple, if an aftermarket part pukes somewhere on vacation I don’t want to be stranded for 2 or 3 days waiting on a replacement to come in UPS. Additionally I’ve seen too many times where you buy an aftermarket part and 5 years down the road repair parts or exact replacement units are no longer available so you’re back to re-mounting, re-wiring or re-plumbing.

Vern’s system it’s well though out and apparently worked very well. It would have been about the same amount of work to build as mine and the cost would be close to the same as what I am doing. The ultimate test is that the system works trouble free and Vern’s did.

From my experience in building this type of system that I’m doing should also work well and should be a bit more serviceable in the event of component failure. Additionally the redundant fuel pump setup if nothing else provides me with a lot pf piece of mind on those long trips.

Sorry about getting so long winded just trying to explain some of my thoughts.
 

drknow90rs

Greasemonkey
Aug 12, 2009
117
0
0
Wittmann, AZ
Cool. I have been to ft. Huachuca many times (But I'll be damned if I'll ever be able to spell it correctly!!! LOL) I agre with your thinking and do a lot of the same things. Build it for the worst imaginable and you will have less problems. I'm not a big fan of in-tank pumps. I have sumped my 90 camaro and 85 T/A using dual Aeromotive A-1000's on the T/A. What I like about the A-1000's Is the motor is seperate from the pump body and the replacments are only 119.oo. (I carry a spare in the T/A) It can be changed with a hex wrench in about 20 minutes. Might be something to think about.


Next Hot rod power tour I am going to try to take my Twin-turbo'd 383 sb T/A along for the ride. I believe in durable power too!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

GBodyForum is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to amazon.com. Amazon, the Amazon logo, AmazonSupply, and the AmazonSupply logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.

Please support GBodyForum Sponsors

Classic Truck Consoles Dixie Restoration Depot UMI Performance

Contact [email protected] for info on becoming a sponsor