Electric "Muscle" Cars

[olds307 and 403]

Some cursory googling and Youtubing puts a DIY solar system somewhere more in the 20-30k range. Assuming they last 30 or so years like they say, and given the cost of electricity back in MI, the payback would probably be in the 10 years or less mark. Also consider that electricity probably isn't going to get any cheaper if/when they roll out the carbon tax. Geothermal heating/cooling is definitely on my radar, I've seen them dig the tube, but I need to do more research into the exchanging of that heat (air/radiant?) and how many BTUs to expect. Standing alone, I doubt it'll heat a house to 80 when it's 0 outside and conversely it probably won't get the house down to 60 in the summer when it's 90+ out. The question then becomes, if it's there to augment regular utilities, will there be an actual savings? Or did I just carry out an expensive time consuming science project? I have a few years yet to run the numbers. For now, I'm just trying to get my hands on a few undeveloped acres.

Saskpower here, especially when first started has/had a good deal to get into electric. I forget what it was to get into electric. I want to say 5 grand down, talking multiple banks to run a farm with a heated shop. He was looking at Propane. Unless you are in town, getting a gas line ran from the main line can be as much as 50K. The deal this farmer signed was, when the meter ran backwards in the Summer, he got that as electrical credit. Supposedly it has gone up and changed more in Saskpower's. A couple of farms have made the switch. My Uncle has been Geothermal for years. It works great in the Summer. Winter here definitely needs a lot of supplementary heat added. I think maintenance is reasonable. We need a lot of Solar and Geothermal conversions to help our electric grid for the electric car to work. There is also talk companies like John Deere are looking at battery powered farm equipment. To get the harvest done here is weather and time dependent and they run straight for many hours.

 

[Hurricane77]

Some cursory googling and Youtubing puts a DIY solar system somewhere more in the 20-30k range. Assuming they last 30 or so years like they say, and given the cost of electricity back in MI, the payback would probably be in the 10 years or less mark. Also consider that electricity probably isn't going to get any cheaper if/when they roll out the carbon tax. Geothermal heating/cooling is definitely on my radar, I've seen them dig the tube, but I need to do more research into the exchanging of that heat (air/radiant?) and how many BTUs to expect. Standing alone, I doubt it'll heat a house to 80 when it's 0 outside and conversely it probably won't get the house down to 60 in the summer when it's 90+ out. The question then becomes, if it's there to augment regular utilities, will there be an actual savings? Or did I just carry out an expensive time consuming science project? I have a few years yet to run the numbers. For now, I'm just trying to get my hands on a few undeveloped acres.

Well, I have some real world experience in that for you. My place, just outside Ottawa, Canada has had geothermal since before I moved in > 15 years ago. It can hit 100F here in the summer - sure, it's not Texas, Florida or Arizona, but can get quite hot - and humid. Combined with skylights and quite a few south and west facing windows, it has the potential to get quite toasty in here. My geothermal (which is a terrible misnomer - more accurately they are referred to as a ground source heat pump), has zero issues keeping it cool (70F) in the summer. They are actually quite a bit more efficient cooling than they are heating. My system is open loop, meaning I pull water from my well and it discharges into a pond maybe 100'' from the house.

In the winter, again, it can get quite cold, down to -35 or so at times. Again, it has no problem keeping it warm enough in the winter either (again ~70F). The key is, they need to be sized appropriately.

would natural gas (for heating at least) be cheaper? Yes. I do not have access to natural gas. Some form of electric (including geothermal), oil or propane are my options. The geothermal is definitely cheaper than the other options - especially how crazy propane has become in the last 18 months or so. There is a high upfront cost though. The units alone cost ~$20k at this point I'm guessing. That doesn't include putting in vertical or horizontal loops if you're going closed loop. I believe that some jurisdictions would not allow an open loop system like mine.

So to answer your question, yes, they're capable of keeping you comfortable. You just have to figure out if the high upfront cost is worth it to you in the long run.

 

[1 RARE T]

 

[Supercharged111]

Well, I have some real world experience in that for you. My place, just outside Ottawa, Canada has had geothermal since before I moved in > 15 years ago. It can hit 100F here in the summer - sure, it's not Texas, Florida or Arizona, but can get quite hot - and humid. Combined with skylights and quite a few south and west facing windows, it has the potential to get quite toasty in here. My geothermal (which is a terrible misnomer - more accurately they are referred to as a ground source heat pump), has zero issues keeping it cool (70F) in the summer. They are actually quite a bit more efficient cooling than they are heating. My system is open loop, meaning I pull water from my well and it discharges into a pond maybe 100'' from the house.

In the winter, again, it can get quite cold, down to -35 or so at times. Again, it has no problem keeping it warm enough in the winter either (again ~70F). The key is, they need to be sized appropriately.

would natural gas (for heating at least) be cheaper? Yes. I do not have access to natural gas. Some form of electric (including geothermal), oil or propane are my options. The geothermal is definitely cheaper than the other options - especially how crazy propane has become in the last 18 months or so. There is a high upfront cost though. The units alone cost ~$20k at this point I'm guessing. That doesn't include putting in vertical or horizontal loops if you're going closed loop. I believe that some jurisdictions would not allow an open loop system like mine.

So to answer your question, yes, they're capable of keeping you comfortable. You just have to figure out if the high upfront cost is worth it to you in the long run.

Is yours forced air? I wonder, if the ground is about 50 degrees, how it warms the house to 70?

 

[Hurricane77]

Saskpower here, especially when first started has/had a good deal to get into electric. I forget what it was to get into electric. I want to say 5 grand down, talking multiple banks to run a farm with a heated shop. He was looking at Propane. Unless you are in town, getting a gas line ran from the main line can be as much as 50K. The deal this farmer signed was, when the meter ran backwards in the Summer, he got that as electrical credit. Supposedly it has gone up and changed more in Saskpower's. A couple of farms have made the switch. My Uncle has been Geothermal for years. It works great in the Summer. Winter here definitely needs a lot of supplementary heat added. I think maintenance is reasonable. We need a lot of Solar and Geothermal conversions to help our electric grid for the electric car to work. There is also talk companies like John Deere are looking at battery powered farm equipment. To get the harvest done here is weather and time dependent and they run straight for many hours.

Ontario had some very good incentives a number of years back for small solar. Not for off-grid use mind you, but they were offering 20 year contract paying something like $0.80/kWh. Max size was 10 kW. But still a pretty good deal if you could afford the upfront cost, which is much higher than it is today.

I'm currently looking at adding solar to help offset my electricity bills (something like $3k/year). It's a Net Metering program now where you gain credits during peak times (summer) and then use those up during the winter when solar production is lower. It's definitely not intended to be a self sufficient off-grid type system. Just a cost offset. The max power output they allow for connection is 10 kW, however, the system being proposed cab generate up to 18 kW. The theory being that if the system can only generate to 10 kW, you're only going to put the max back into the grid during peak hours in the summer. But by oversizing the system, you can be putting the max 10 kW back into the grid for a much longer period of time.

Yeah, you're kind of 'wasting' generating capacity during peak times, but payback is worth it. Plus you can add load shedding devices to consume the excess rather than putting it back into the grid. For example a battery backup which only gets charged via the excess generated capacity. It can then be used for emergency backup, or you discharge the battery back to the grid when the amount of power generated is below the 10kW. System is even 'smart' enough to monitor weather warnings and decide not to discharge the batteries in case of impending severe weather. Those that doesn't help when someone randomly takes out a power line in an accident. That excess could also be used for an EV charger (only works if you're at home during peak times) and they're supposed to be coming out with a controller for a water heater that runs off the excess,

 

[Hurricane77]

Is yours forced air? I wonder, if the ground is about 50 degrees, how it warms the house to 70?

Yes, it's forced air. Water temp coming out of the ground is actually mid-40s at best.

It's a heat pump, not a direct heat exchanger. It's got a compressor, evaporator, compressor etc. It pulls energy (heat) out of the water and puts it into the air. In heating mode, the water exiting is several degrees colder than when it comes in. You can;t think if it as temperature, you have to consider it as energy. Same way a refrigerator or AC works, but in reverse. Since mine uses pure water (instead of a glycol mix) the system does need to have freeze protection built in since it could actually extract enough heat from the water causing it to drop below freezing and then the system seizes up. But that's not typically an issue if it's setup properly.

 

[jiho]

View attachment 205363

But paying a CO2 tax WILL change the climate! By subsidizing more HOT AIR emissions from the government!

 

[blk7gxn]

The entire phrase "climate change" is absolutely stupid, stupid because its in our face apparent and has been happening BILLIONS of years already, ICE AGE ring a bell? If you didn't have "climate change" we would still be covered in ice. Its about as dumb as stopping a moving car on the street to tell them their car is running, N.S.D.T!

Id rather spend my energy being a responsible individual while I'm here on this planet, doing what I CAN yet not spending every waking hour biting nails on things that are out of my control or anyone else's, EXAMPLE, the ice age ended and all melted PRIOR to humans and their internal evil combustion engines ever were on the scene. this is where it kills me, people jump on a band wagon because they are guilted into something by others, that's sole purpose was to generate excess monies by the ones in control through regulation. One volcano emits more green house gas and pollutants than all the vehicles in the WORLD in one fiscal year!!! Why aren't we putting our efforts there???? Because there is no profits to be made! END of story.......Another one before I close, just like in California where they are trying to tax owners of cows because their cows flatulence is causing global warming, GET A LIFE! People who come up with this crap should be taxed for being STUPID, we could pay off the national deficit in two hours.

GP403... "Carry on. Don't make me come up there, the adults are trying to talk."

Response from blk7gxn
Its sad seeing the administrator falling into this insult league class now too. I often find when people who try to belittle you in front of others, are often battling their own issues. I pray your ok and that your having a great day. I appreciate the work you do on this site and for the G body community you have brought together. I just hope in future posts, more respect can be given to others who may have a different opinion, sometimes we can all learn from it. That is the true adult who can accomplish this.

 

[GP403]

pic removed

You do understand that, no, this doesn't directly do anything, but is supposed to be a business "incentive" (bc $$$ is the language) to clean up their act. Do you really believe that its actually going towards something else? Cute.

The entire phrase "climate change" is absolutely stupid, stupid because its in our face apparent and has been happening BILLIONS of years already, ICE AGE ring a bell? If you didn't have "climate change" we would still be covered in ice. Its about as dumb as stopping a moving car on the street to tell them their car is running, N.S.D.T!

Id rather spend my energy being a responsible individual while I'm here on this planet, doing what I CAN yet not spending every waking hour biting nails on things that are out of my control or anyone else's, EXAMPLE, the ice age ended and all melted PRIOR to humans and their internal evil combustion engines ever were on the scene. this is where it kills me, people jump on a band wagon because they are guilted into something by others, that's sole purpose was to generate excess monies by the ones in control through regulation. One volcano emits more green house gas and pollutants than all the vehicles in the WORLD in one fiscal year!!! Why aren't we putting our efforts there???? Because there is no profits to be made! END of story.......Another one before I close, just like in California where they are trying to tax owners of cows because their cows flatulence is causing global warming, GET A LIFE! People who come up with this crap should be taxed for being STUPID, we could pay off the national deficit in two hours.

Edit: I just realized that that's pretty impressive and completely unaware where you talk about doing what you can, and not worry about "things that are out of my control or anyone else's" and in the next sentence lamenting "One volcano emits more green house gas and pollutants than all the vehicles in the WORLD in one fiscal year!!! Why aren't we putting our efforts there????"

Just take a minute.


reply bans on this thread in effect.

Carry on. Don't make me come up there, the adults are trying to talk.

 

[melloelky]

I want pizza hut now🍕