jeep t-176

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Alright well I post things on a forum and ask for advice, I don't just disregard the advice I get. I look it as people trying to help me in anyway they can. I also am not following any "blindly mentality". I have just perceived, after reading a good amount of the advice 85 Cutlass has posted on this forum, that his advice is correct most of the time. Therefore, I trust that his advice to you is accurate and that you should at least consider it and not brush it aside like it seems like you have done, seemingly careless of his good intentions and everyone elses' who has posted.

Sorry to be frank
 
I may have been off on the speed it will shift at ( I was going by my truck with a 3.54 rear gear and a 3 something first that shifts at 6700 RPM going about 35mph-and I do that about 20-30x a day, every day), but you still are not considering how far the RPMs will drop when going from 1st to second, and how that compares to your torque curve. That is the shift recovery point that I was talking about. As for the TH350, I will agree with you there as I HATE all automatic transmissions. My car only has one because I don't yet have the cash to put in a manual. I tend to prefer close ratio boxes because of the whole shift recovery point thing as it lets me stay in the power curve when driving aggressively. Plus, transmissions with taller first gear ratios tend to be stronger than those with shorter (numerically higher) ones. My ultimate transmission would be a six speed manual with a 1:1 6th and a rear gear set up with around a 2.14:1 final drive ratio. Then I could set up the other gears to be where they would be with a shorter rear gear. This is actually the strongest setup as overdrive stresses the drivetrain, and shorter rear gears compromise strength with a smaller pinion diameter and a smaller cross section of gear tooth engagement than taller ones do. Plus, it gives you the mathematical equivalent of the overdrive transmission so you lose nothing in terms of economy.

However, we live in the real world and most of us can't afford to have a custom rear end and transmission set up for our cars. So what would I do? If you want a cheap manual, go for a T-5. The 1st is still taller than the TH350's, but not extremely tall. It also was produced in a wide variety of cases and applications, so you can tailor it to suit your needs if necessary. However, a 88-92 Camaro V8 application would probably be the best choice (those years are the World Class T-5's in Camaros). It is the strongest of these weak transmissions, and has a reasonable set of gears in it. It is probably every bit as strong as the T176 but comes in a 2WD passenger car version. If you have a strong drag car though, neither of these transmissions will hold up for long with slicks. In a drag car, I would consider the T56 6 speed manual, but understand that making it fit is a real PITA. It is stronger than ANY T-5 and most 80's transmissions of any sort, but it is larger and the price is much higher. The other logical option is a Richmond Super T-10. In a drag car, you don't need overdrive, so you can save some cash there. You can also get the gearing of your choice if you buy it new or modify it.

Whatever you choose to do, start with a 2WD transmission. The amount of things you will need to change to use a 4WD one in a 2WD car makes it very difficult and expensive. They include (but are not limited to): the tailshaft, output shaft, shifter, and sometimes the shift rail too. Also, don't just look at gearing. Look at strength too. Most good transmissions that can easily fit in a car have an aftermarket following. If you find one that does not, ask why. Lastly, I am not saying NOT to think outside the box and consider things that no one else has done. I think outside the box all the time and investigate the odd and quirky to see what it can do for my needs (I dig the Zaporozhetz 968M, so I am by no means conventional!). However, you should realize that it is exceedingly rare to discover a 30 year old part that will work well with a SBC but that no one else is using. These engines are the guinea pigs of many smart and stupid people alike, and if it works it usually can be found documented somewhere. So, try new things, but don't waste your money either.
 
so stay away from any t5 mated to a camaro v6?

also one that i have looked at before, and i know there were 2 wheel drive cherokees, the ax15 out of a 90's cherokee, i learned to drive in my mom 4.0 HO with this 5 speed and it was a stiff solid trans,

maybe i will get a chance today to call around some junkyards on a good t5

thanks for the response 85
 
The ax15 can also be found in dakotas, novak conversions makes an adapter plate to bolt on an existing gm bellhousing. Advanced Adapters makes a complete bellhousing to bolt on chevy/buick engines. Strength?????? I've seen a few blow apart behind the 3.9 V6, but that was due to serious over abuse, the trans is not made to be driven like a drag car (my friend found that out 3 times). I've also seen a couple "go" behind a 4.0, but again, over abused, 38" tires are rough on anything, especially when stuck, however it was just reverse that went.

I have been pondering the AX15 for the past couple years, possibility of dropping one in my bu. I almost think it will hold up, but I'm not sure, my car doesn't see the abuse that the dakota or the jeep got, so it may be ok. There is some aftermarket support on these, and I have also heard of the possibility of making them stronger. Apparently some toyota supras used basically the same transmission (internals), and there is upgrades for them. I think I may try building a set-up for my car over the winter, and see what happens, worst case scenario I'm out a few hundred bucks.
 
The V6 and 4 cylinder T-5's are VERY weak. They have a smaller diameter input shaft, and some ridiculous 1st gear like a 4:1! (Having had one of them, I can attest to the fact that the sharp ratio split pulled my hopped up AMC 232 L6 right out of the power band when it hit second. It was quite quick in first, the other gears...not so much.) Only the V8 models have any chance of holding up, and that is assuming you do not run slicks or very sticky tires ( just like making a 7.5 live). Speaking of the rear axle, that is one of the things I plan on upgrading at the same time I do the 5 speed. An automatic cushions drivetrain shock through the torque converter whereas the manual hits fairly hard. My plan is for a 3.42 geared turbo Regal 8.5 when i do the T-5, and I do not plan on running sticky tires. I actually have 4 T-5's from various applications (5.0 Mustang, 2 V8 Camaro's, and 1 V6 Camaro one that was a freebie) and am hoping to get one usable transmission out of them. Don't forget that a manual swap is fairly expensive, even when done low buck because these cars rarely ever came with a manual and some of the unique parts are not reproduced. People make it work, but it requires a bit of engineering to make it reliable.

As for a Cherokee transmission, they are garbage. The AX15, IIRC, is actually a Renault or Peugeot transmission that AMC (later Chrysler) could get cheap. It is not well suited to a high horsepower application either. The transmission is considered an Achilles Heel in the box Cherokees, so I would not use one in your application. It survives in a stock Cherokee because most of them are used as the typical soft roader without the normal abuse of going off road. Do so, and it quickly fails. Likewise, put it behind a powerful engine in a car intended to accelerate quickly and it will break. If you want a truck transmission, one out of a full size pickup would be the best choice. They are intended to be abused and see heavy loads, so they are stronger than the ones in lighter vehicles with the same amount of power.

One more word of caution: There are over 100 variants of the Borg Warner/Tremec T-5 transmission. Getting the right one mans knowing what to look for. I would research them with a few hours of Google searching before you go shopping. Remember that Ford and GM were not the only companies to use it. They saw duty in everything from Nissan 300 ZX's to Rovers, and knowing what to look for is important. There are multiple case variations that put the shifter in a number of places. There are also many different input shafts, output shafts and case lengths. For example, a Ford Mustang WC T-5 will not bolt in place of a Camaro WC T-5. Plus, since these transmissions saw a hard life, the year of the car does not necessarily tell you what T-5 you are working with! I have seen many a NWC T-5 where a WC T-5 was specified when the car was new, so be careful!
 
adumb said:
so stay away from any t5 mated to a camaro v6?

also one that i have looked at before, and i know there were 2 wheel drive cherokees, the ax15 out of a 90's cherokee, i learned to drive in my mom 4.0 HO with this 5 speed and it was a stiff solid trans,

maybe i will get a chance today to call around some junkyards on a good t5

thanks for the response 85


what you want is a T5 WC which you'll find in an 88 and up F body with a 305..
 
85 Cutlass Brougham said:
As for a Cherokee transmission, they are garbage. The AX15, IIRC, is actually a Renault or Peugeot transmission that AMC (later Chrysler) could get cheap. It is not well suited to a high horsepower application either. The transmission is considered an Achilles Heel in the box Cherokees, so I would not use one in your application. It survives in a stock Cherokee because most of them are used as the typical soft roader without the normal abuse of going off road. Do so, and it quickly fails. Likewise, put it behind a powerful engine in a car intended to accelerate quickly and it will break. If you want a truck transmission, one out of a full size pickup would be the best choice. They are intended to be abused and see heavy loads, so they are stronger than the ones in lighter vehicles with the same amount of power.


You're thinking of the ba 10/5 5 speed that they used in the late 80's and very early 90's, put out by peugot, and yes they are absolute garbage. The AX15 (Aisin Warner) came about in 91 or 92, and was a huge improvement (lasted to the late 90's early 2000's replaced with a new venture box), like I mentioned I seen a few break but it was over abused by either huge tires and a lead foot or trying to race with it. It does have it's weak points but it is upgradeable, for a driver, (not abusive) it may be ok. I'm not saying it's the best option by any means, but it is an option non the less. Oh and the ax5 is a garbage unit as well (found behind the 4 cyl).
 
yeah after i have been doing this research i am starting to think i should be buying a remanned one offa ebay or through autozone where i work,

my friend had an 81 malibu with a m21 close ratio in it, i would almost like to try that route.

im thinking that or t-5

so wc t5 is the v8 one?

yes from driving my moms 4.0 HO with the ax15, it is defintely a strong trans. and plus my 350 is probably only putting out 300hp to the crank, if that.
 
The WC T-5 was only used in later years, but is difficult to discern from a NWC (Non-world class) T-5 unless you know what to look for. The easiest way to determine it is to look at the countershaft bearing at the front of the case. Sadly, I forget if the way to tell is that it does or does not have a Timkin tapered roller bearing in this position. The Muncie will be MUCH stronger than the T-5, and if you make a lot of power it is a better choice. However, it is also a very expensive transmission to find as it has not been made in 35-40 years. The Super T-10 however, is still made today and may be easier and cheaper to find. The T-10 predates the Muncie, and GM actually used it in cars like the dual Quad 409 full size cars. Why did they switch? Well, GM was tired of paying an outside source for a transmission, so they back engineered the T-10 and changed it enough to avoid patent disputes. This is why the two transmissions look quite similar in many ways. In any case, you should spend a few hours with Google before you buy any T-5. Good ones aren't spectacular, and bad ones are abysmal. However, if you mainly drive on the street and have a mild engine, it is an acceptable choice if you are on a real world budget. Just don't expect it to live long with much more than 350hp, street tires or not. After all, if you have a really powerful engine, you are going to use it. If you weren't, you would probably not have it. I should post pics of the 3rd gear cluster in one of the ones I have that was in a Camaro behind a 425hp 406. It's almost completely stripped of teeth.
 
Actually Muncies are still made. There is a company (I can't remember who right now) that rebuilds old ones, and makes new ones. That have beefed up the internals. And they have fixed the Muncie's weak point, the case. They redesigned them and make them brand new. Pricey, yes. But that whine is so worth it lol.
 
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