Though I might add... as far as i can tell, the first musclecar was created in 1963 when Pontiac decided to stuff a bigger engine into a Tempest. Which is pretty much the same thing most people here seem to do with their cars.
Oh, and when they first tried it in '63, they didn't think there would be a market for it.
Nope, it's the 64 Tempest/ Le Mans you are thinking of. The 63 is a compact that shared part of it's platform with the Corvair, Buick Special and Olds F-85. The 60-63 Tempest is unique in that it used half a Pontiac 389 (4 cylinder), and had a rope drive connecting it to a rear transaxle. The 326 V8 was later available, and there were also 5 "Super Duty" drag cars sold with lightened bodies and a 428. Needless to say, the rope drive didn't exactly like that 428!
Now some people who are less purist in their way of seeing things trace the musclecar back to the 1950's with the Chrysler 300 letter series cars, fuelie Chevy and Pontiac sedans, and supercharged Ford sedans with the 312 "Thunderbird" Y block option. Some also include the 409 cars, Max Wedge Mopars or 406 and 427 Fords. While they are all indicative of this particular automotive era, the most correct definition really only extends to a certain year range and certain body styles. If you want to go early, the 1959 Rambler Rebel is a midsize car with a big engine option that some others call the first musclecar, but it was not a youth oriented offering. I tend to think of the GTO as the first, cheap, bare bones big V8 in a midsize car musclecar that everyone sought to emulate within a year or two of it's introduction as the genesis of the pure musclecar.
well maybe the g-body cars were not a muscle car when u think of the 1960's and 1970's but when u look at what they were up against i think they were the last muscle car. They were up against smog laws, power robbing add-ons and luxury items. They were though the last of the full steel, full frame gm cars, running up against unibody cars with front wheel drive. So in there time and maybe more today, most, g-bodys in my opinion are a muscle car
I don't consider them muscle cars due to low power (GN/GNX excluded) and a single exhaust (crossover into a single pipe into a single cat. converter then split back in two is still a single).
My 2 cents.
you can't call them "the last muscle car" or "the only muscle car of the 80's". not when the camaro-one of the longest running muscle cars-still came with a 350ci.
now the 'vette is questionable as to what it is. it wasn't a supercar until the C5's (maybe not until they broke 200mph with the ZR1), but it's not really a muscle car. it sure as f%ck ain't a sports car. a mitsu 3000gt is a sports car, or the newer pontiac GP or G8.
The 80's vette's, camaro and T/A's never had much more than 200 horse if that, were they muscle cars? If the question was, was the g body a muscle car than hell yes, it was. The GN being the cream of the crop by being actually fast and then include the 442's and Monte SS's as well.
How many guys have swapped out 6 cylinders out of their 60's camaros, mustangs, darts and novas? All of em? Those were economy cars, grandma cars or girls cars to go to school in. What are they today? How many of those cars are running TBI motors or even LS motors now? Tell your buddy to pump sand.... you got a muscle car. :wink:
did any of you happen to see the one that was on ebay awhile back? guy didn't really know what he had, and thought he might be able to get a couple grand out of it.... sold for something like $300k :shock: I remeber seeing it when it was @ $2500 and thought it was alot for the way it looked and without a motor... few months afterward I see the an article in a magazine about it!
“……….A guy I work with is arguing with me that G-body cars are not muscle cars, anyone agree with him…….”
I do, but as this thread shows it depends on who you ask. In the years I have been into this I’ve seen a lot of terms come and go and in some cases the meaning change drastically. Hot Rod, Street Rod, Rat Rod, Traditional Hot Rod, Muscle car, street machine, Gasser, Pro street, Pro touring, Shoe Box, cruiser, and on and on have all been attempts to fit ones specific car into a category. Sometimes the terms expanded to encompass a wider variety of vehicles sometimes they didn’t.
85 Cutlass pretty much nailed the traditional muscle car definition.
“…..midsize sedans with the large engines out of large sedans and were built from 1964-1974…..”
And to that I would only add “factory produced” and “big block” engine (for those manufactures that used physically different sized blocks). By today’s standards or even comparing them to the G bodies they did not handle or stop well nor were they as comfortable. They were also designed to do only two things well…..smoke the tires and go fast in a straight line.
I think you’ll probably find that it’s the older guys (like me) who lived thru the era that are probably the ones who are more likely to be sticklers for traditional definitions. We watched (and drove) what was coming out of the factories……… the 396/454 powered SS Chevelle’s, Hemi and Big Block Mopars, and Big Block Fords. Then almost overnight that changed into 4 Cylinder Cobra IIs, Ventura based small block GTOs and Cordoba based 318 powered Road Runners. When Motor Trend announced that the quickest American production vehicle in 1978 was a 360 powered Pickup Truck (the Lil Red Express trucks) you have to admit it was pretty sad times.
To me (and a lot of others) the muscle car era ended when the emissions era began. Go for a ride in a stock 396 Chevelle or 383 Road Runner (both far from being the top dog of the era) and then compare it to any stock G Body (with the possible exception of the GNX which used a power adder) and that becomes quickly evident.
While the G Bodies are good cars/trucks in their own right call them what you want they aren’t a muscle car.
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