i worked for saturn for 12yrs . the s-series cars were good good cars but whenit was replaced with the ions and the l series cars are crap they are rebaged sabs . the l-series had the same problems with there v-6 as they had in the caddilacs. i left saturn almost 5 yrs ago becase i saw the end was coming soon ,they sould have cut it some time ago and used the money they dumped in to saturn and put in other brands ,and the problem is the saturns vue had a honda v-6 in it for a while ,becase honda wanted the onstar for some of the cars.i now this becase when i was working for saturn when they were first out they had a problem with the trans in it and a enginner was at our dealer trying to figure it out .
Pontiac and Saturn to be phased out
- Thread starter Regal8601
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Part of GM's problem is no focus. I don't agree with selling saturn as much as refocusing the company. Heres what I'd do-
The saturn would be a simple commuter car. No leather seats, no SUV's, no TV, no sat nav.
Chevy would have more options, pickups, SUV's, and mid size cars. Leather seats would be options, sat nav, but no TV's.
GMC would be more luxurious and less fancy then a chevy pcikup/SUV. High optioned and low optioned. No mid level GMC's. Bring back manual trans too.
Pontiac would be sports cars. No 4 cylinders, very few front wheel drives. G8, GTO, convertibles ECT. No SUV's
Olds would be between chevy and buick.
Buick would be a grandmas car. No high performance cars or SUV's.
Cadillac would be much like it is today. Upscale, leather seats standard, sat nav standard, ect. Also with high performance. Caddy is the only GM going the right direction.
Saab being dropped is good, Hummer needs to get dropped as well.
The saturn would be a simple commuter car. No leather seats, no SUV's, no TV, no sat nav.
Chevy would have more options, pickups, SUV's, and mid size cars. Leather seats would be options, sat nav, but no TV's.
GMC would be more luxurious and less fancy then a chevy pcikup/SUV. High optioned and low optioned. No mid level GMC's. Bring back manual trans too.
Pontiac would be sports cars. No 4 cylinders, very few front wheel drives. G8, GTO, convertibles ECT. No SUV's
Olds would be between chevy and buick.
Buick would be a grandmas car. No high performance cars or SUV's.
Cadillac would be much like it is today. Upscale, leather seats standard, sat nav standard, ect. Also with high performance. Caddy is the only GM going the right direction.
Saab being dropped is good, Hummer needs to get dropped as well.
GMC needs to go - I've always said this and can't believe it isn't part of GM's plan. It makes zero sense, they are the EXACT same truck - get rid of them. Someone mentioned how Ford brags about outselling Chevy and GMC individually (such a lame BS claim) - for that reason alone GM should get rid of one. It's surprising GM has never rebutted that claim in a commercial, but I guess they don't want to let out the big secret that they are the same darn truck 
I agree with the post above to some degree... make less vehicles and quit rebadging every single one for every division. Every division could have survived if they only had 4-5 cars each, with their own niche like they once were. What's the point in selling the same minivan under a Chevy, Pontiac and Saturn Badge? Who do they honestly think they are fooling? And why are they competing with themselves.
Why in the world are there so many models of SUV's... I don't follow newer cars close enough to ramble the names off, but it seems like Chevy alone has a dozen different SUV/Crossover/whatevers. Make two, maybe three different sizes and that's it.... and don't repeat these three throughout every brand.
Have GM dealers... that sell all the brands, not just a couple here and a couple there... everyone knows it's all GM - you aren't fooling anyone.
Saturn's are great cars. First gens are nearly indestructable and I would put them up against any car out there, new or old for reliability and mileage. Even today's cars can't match the mileage of a 15+ year old TBI Saturn. I bought a 5-speed '93 as a DD a few years back for $1500 and it has by far been the best car I've ever owned. I liked it so much in fact, that I snagged a '96 SC1 that I saw for sale, just to put aside... I haven't had to use it yet, but it will replace the '93 when the time comes. I've never heard of someone that owns a Saturn complaining about them - as someone mentioned, their brand loyalty was very strong, especially for a relatively new company, and that is solely due to how they once operated and the reliability of their cars. One thing they tried to do that hurt them is change the public perception... without even giving it time. People knew them as the no frills commuter cars with plastic panels. They started making some really nice vehicles in recent years, that IMO were better looking than anything else GM, but will now get the axe before being given a fair shake. Although it made more sense to leave it the way it was, I think Saturn did turn the corner into a higher end car, but the public wasn't given a chance to fully recognize this. I would have bought Saturn's exclusively as DD's for the rest of my life, but it looks like that's out the window (heck, I might not even by GM now, which I never thought I'd hear myself say). Regardless though... as mentioned above - Saturn was better before GM tried to make them more GM.... they took the one division they had that made sense in how it was run, and brought it down by conforming to the rest of GM's ways. I have a hard time believing Saturn wasn't profitable either... I see tons of them on the road around here.
Of the remaining divisions, GMC should have been the first one to go... followed by Hummer (which is for sale I guess), then Buick (cheap Cadillacs)... but as I said - they all could have survived if they thinned the darn heard, sold them all under generic GM dealers, and gave the divisions some identity back. It's amazing how they just seem to always dig the hole deeper and deeper, but I guess that is why they are where they are.
On a side note - anyone who says unions have run their course, have obviously never worked at a facility that doesn't care about health and safety. I worked for an austrian citric acid plant for a year, and let me tell you - it was like stepping back into the 1930's with the way they ran the plant. Shifts were 12 hours with no breaks, and you ran your arse off for those 12 hours. I won't even start with safety infractions and dangers as I'd be here a while. In the year I was there, one guy nearly died (and was basically a vegetable afterwards) and seveal others were injured - amazing how few there were really. Report them you ask? Complain? All that would do is get you fired ASAP. Of course they had a high turnover rate - about 60% when I was there, but you can't leave until you find another job - some did quit without anywhere to go though, and some guys lasted less than a shift before walking out the door. Since I left, a union has gotten in there, and believe me, that place NEEDED it. Such places are few and far between these days, but they do exist.... and if you think more employers won't push the limits if they can get away with it, you're only kidding yourself. What I will agree with, is that neither side can be given as much control as the auto workers unions had... but I also blame the companies themselves for being extremely short sighted and letting it happen. They signed the same papers the unions did. My current place of employment is a great model of how a union should work together with management to have reasonable outcomes that work for both sides - it's all about give and take and keeping the company alive, while being fair to the workers.
I agree with the post above to some degree... make less vehicles and quit rebadging every single one for every division. Every division could have survived if they only had 4-5 cars each, with their own niche like they once were. What's the point in selling the same minivan under a Chevy, Pontiac and Saturn Badge? Who do they honestly think they are fooling? And why are they competing with themselves.
Why in the world are there so many models of SUV's... I don't follow newer cars close enough to ramble the names off, but it seems like Chevy alone has a dozen different SUV/Crossover/whatevers. Make two, maybe three different sizes and that's it.... and don't repeat these three throughout every brand.
Have GM dealers... that sell all the brands, not just a couple here and a couple there... everyone knows it's all GM - you aren't fooling anyone.
Saturn's are great cars. First gens are nearly indestructable and I would put them up against any car out there, new or old for reliability and mileage. Even today's cars can't match the mileage of a 15+ year old TBI Saturn. I bought a 5-speed '93 as a DD a few years back for $1500 and it has by far been the best car I've ever owned. I liked it so much in fact, that I snagged a '96 SC1 that I saw for sale, just to put aside... I haven't had to use it yet, but it will replace the '93 when the time comes. I've never heard of someone that owns a Saturn complaining about them - as someone mentioned, their brand loyalty was very strong, especially for a relatively new company, and that is solely due to how they once operated and the reliability of their cars. One thing they tried to do that hurt them is change the public perception... without even giving it time. People knew them as the no frills commuter cars with plastic panels. They started making some really nice vehicles in recent years, that IMO were better looking than anything else GM, but will now get the axe before being given a fair shake. Although it made more sense to leave it the way it was, I think Saturn did turn the corner into a higher end car, but the public wasn't given a chance to fully recognize this. I would have bought Saturn's exclusively as DD's for the rest of my life, but it looks like that's out the window (heck, I might not even by GM now, which I never thought I'd hear myself say). Regardless though... as mentioned above - Saturn was better before GM tried to make them more GM.... they took the one division they had that made sense in how it was run, and brought it down by conforming to the rest of GM's ways. I have a hard time believing Saturn wasn't profitable either... I see tons of them on the road around here.
Of the remaining divisions, GMC should have been the first one to go... followed by Hummer (which is for sale I guess), then Buick (cheap Cadillacs)... but as I said - they all could have survived if they thinned the darn heard, sold them all under generic GM dealers, and gave the divisions some identity back. It's amazing how they just seem to always dig the hole deeper and deeper, but I guess that is why they are where they are.
On a side note - anyone who says unions have run their course, have obviously never worked at a facility that doesn't care about health and safety. I worked for an austrian citric acid plant for a year, and let me tell you - it was like stepping back into the 1930's with the way they ran the plant. Shifts were 12 hours with no breaks, and you ran your arse off for those 12 hours. I won't even start with safety infractions and dangers as I'd be here a while. In the year I was there, one guy nearly died (and was basically a vegetable afterwards) and seveal others were injured - amazing how few there were really. Report them you ask? Complain? All that would do is get you fired ASAP. Of course they had a high turnover rate - about 60% when I was there, but you can't leave until you find another job - some did quit without anywhere to go though, and some guys lasted less than a shift before walking out the door. Since I left, a union has gotten in there, and believe me, that place NEEDED it. Such places are few and far between these days, but they do exist.... and if you think more employers won't push the limits if they can get away with it, you're only kidding yourself. What I will agree with, is that neither side can be given as much control as the auto workers unions had... but I also blame the companies themselves for being extremely short sighted and letting it happen. They signed the same papers the unions did. My current place of employment is a great model of how a union should work together with management to have reasonable outcomes that work for both sides - it's all about give and take and keeping the company alive, while being fair to the workers.
The thing that is sad about Saturn, is that their early cars really were innovative in many ways. The sad thing is that they were not particularly good looking or good in ways noticed by the general public. One of the things I loved about them is that even the quarters were bolted on and could be changed easily. Then there were the doors. To service the windows, you simply unbolted the OUTER skin and punched two reusable plastic rivets out of the door handle. No need to take the interior panel off or the lock cylinder. This made servicing them a breeze. I also loved the presence of a screw on transmission filter, just like an oil filter! Imagine that, you could change the auto trans fluid without dropping the pan! If you have ever worked on one, they made a lot of sense. It's sad that much of what was good about those early Saturns was never carried over to other GM products. They were easily the best engineered GM products from a serviceability standpoint I have ever seen, and I will miss that about them.
BTW, the Packard labeling on the wiring comes from the company that makes much of GM's wiring. The Weatherpack connector is also a Packard product, and is seen across GM's various models.
BTW, the Packard labeling on the wiring comes from the company that makes much of GM's wiring. The Weatherpack connector is also a Packard product, and is seen across GM's various models.
Wow! There are a lot of Buick haters around here! Why kill Buick? Just because you guys don't want one? Let's talk business...
Buick sells. Period. Their customer base is basically recession proof. So is Cadillac and Mercedes. They are not going anywhere while GM can milk them. Buick sells cars that make a profit. Pontiac and Saturn can not say the same thing. I am even looking at a V8 Lucerne right now, but back on point...
GM has had stupid short sighted management for a LONG, LONG time. I don't even have to mention the greedy UAW and their hand in killing the US auto market, do I? That has already been brought up.
Government regulation doesn't help either. We have tighter regs than any other country in the world. Believe it, and look it up if you don't. All that aside, GM could really move forward in today's auto market if they would get off of their butts and give the public what they want to buy. I am tired of crappy generic looking cars that are all the same! Here is what I want (and I have the money to back it up) and what I think they should do.
Cadillac and Buick are making money, plenty of it! Leave them alone. From a business point of view you don't mess with success. Their most successful model ever was the Buick LeSabre, which of course GM cut because they are stupid. Funny, now the Buick LeSabre with the old 3800 is the best selling car in China right now! Please GM, just leave Buick and Cadillac alone...
Pontiac is being killed by more stupid GM execs. A cool looking car that pontiac had? The Grand Am GT. It had a body kit and hood scoops. Spoiler and nice wheels and sporty dash and interior. Don't you guys remember how many girls used to buy those? Replaced by what? The stupid, no styling G5? What a joke! Guess what happened? Mustang V6 sales went up! Next, we have the GTO. An AWESOME car, underneath. On the outside another unidentifiable blob with wheels. What gives? That car under with the Grand Am GT body on the outside would be in my drive way right now if they had made it. For you world travelers, you should see what this car looks like over in Dubai. They call it a Lumina SS and it is hot! Same V8, 6 speed, Holden chassis and the rest, just with a killer body and styling. Not our stupid blob styling in the US. THEY KILLED THE FIREBIRD. How stupid is that? So what that the Camaro and Firebird were being outsold 2 to 1 by the mustang? The point is that those customers went to the mustang, not some other blob GM car. So now why does anyone wonder why Pontiac is about to get the chop? The execs in charge killed it, that's why. Pontiac had harsh styling, performance and power. Now all that is gone and replaced with blobs.
Oldsmobile? STUPID STUPID STUPID GM EXECS AGAIN!! Here is Oldsmobile's track record for GM; first OHV V8 for GM in 1949, first tri power setup in the 50's(J-2) and first front wheel drive for GM in the 66 Toronado. They even took Buick's little 215 aluminum V8 and from 61-63 they made better heads and a turbo option for their F85! First diesel for the US market in 78. You can argue that it wasn't good, but they designed it and built it without the rest of GM. By 82 the engine was great but the reputation it earned early on killed it. First EFI system for GM in 1975. They built an Olds 350 with multiport EFI that ran from 1975-1980 in the Cadillac Seville. and also built the EFI system that Cadillac ran on their 500 from 75 on. Olds pioneered small car power with the QUAD 4 engine that became the new standard for 4 cylinder performance. The last Oldsmobile project before the Stupid idiots at GM merged all divisions into GM powertrain (with the chevy slugs taking the lead) was the AURORA V8 platform for Indy racing that became the Northstar platform. All of these achievments and GM decides that chevy is the standard for all others to be measured by. I am not the only person who will NEVER buy a chevy because of this chevy led GM mis-management. Bring Olds back; they fit as upper class to a chevy with Pontiac-like performance and Buick-like comfort. You can cut about 10 chevy models and redo them Oldsmobile style and make them sell. I would buy one!
Saturn was about to be (and should be) the Opel platform sold in the US. They need to do this because Opel is a good car. I have a place in Bulgaria and family there (in-laws) and I can attest to this. GM needs to buck up, play the stupid EPA games like VW and Mercedes do, and introduce the turbo diesel Opels from europe here. Just do it. I will buy one if you do, GM! I promise!
Please kill Chevy trucks and keep GMC if you must consolidate. You don't have to, though, as both are making profit. Profit is the reason for business decisions. If you make two that are the same with different styling, but they both sell, then why not keep them? How many of us here like our Olds Cutlass styling better than the Monte Carlo? I do, and many people who know they are the same buy the GMC (like me) because I like the way the grille looks better, so why not?
Hummer is a dead dog, so sell it off. Saab has been killed by GM, so bury it too.
These are my opinions, too, but I am business oriented, so what do you think?
Buick sells. Period. Their customer base is basically recession proof. So is Cadillac and Mercedes. They are not going anywhere while GM can milk them. Buick sells cars that make a profit. Pontiac and Saturn can not say the same thing. I am even looking at a V8 Lucerne right now, but back on point...
GM has had stupid short sighted management for a LONG, LONG time. I don't even have to mention the greedy UAW and their hand in killing the US auto market, do I? That has already been brought up.
Government regulation doesn't help either. We have tighter regs than any other country in the world. Believe it, and look it up if you don't. All that aside, GM could really move forward in today's auto market if they would get off of their butts and give the public what they want to buy. I am tired of crappy generic looking cars that are all the same! Here is what I want (and I have the money to back it up) and what I think they should do.
Cadillac and Buick are making money, plenty of it! Leave them alone. From a business point of view you don't mess with success. Their most successful model ever was the Buick LeSabre, which of course GM cut because they are stupid. Funny, now the Buick LeSabre with the old 3800 is the best selling car in China right now! Please GM, just leave Buick and Cadillac alone...
Pontiac is being killed by more stupid GM execs. A cool looking car that pontiac had? The Grand Am GT. It had a body kit and hood scoops. Spoiler and nice wheels and sporty dash and interior. Don't you guys remember how many girls used to buy those? Replaced by what? The stupid, no styling G5? What a joke! Guess what happened? Mustang V6 sales went up! Next, we have the GTO. An AWESOME car, underneath. On the outside another unidentifiable blob with wheels. What gives? That car under with the Grand Am GT body on the outside would be in my drive way right now if they had made it. For you world travelers, you should see what this car looks like over in Dubai. They call it a Lumina SS and it is hot! Same V8, 6 speed, Holden chassis and the rest, just with a killer body and styling. Not our stupid blob styling in the US. THEY KILLED THE FIREBIRD. How stupid is that? So what that the Camaro and Firebird were being outsold 2 to 1 by the mustang? The point is that those customers went to the mustang, not some other blob GM car. So now why does anyone wonder why Pontiac is about to get the chop? The execs in charge killed it, that's why. Pontiac had harsh styling, performance and power. Now all that is gone and replaced with blobs.
Oldsmobile? STUPID STUPID STUPID GM EXECS AGAIN!! Here is Oldsmobile's track record for GM; first OHV V8 for GM in 1949, first tri power setup in the 50's(J-2) and first front wheel drive for GM in the 66 Toronado. They even took Buick's little 215 aluminum V8 and from 61-63 they made better heads and a turbo option for their F85! First diesel for the US market in 78. You can argue that it wasn't good, but they designed it and built it without the rest of GM. By 82 the engine was great but the reputation it earned early on killed it. First EFI system for GM in 1975. They built an Olds 350 with multiport EFI that ran from 1975-1980 in the Cadillac Seville. and also built the EFI system that Cadillac ran on their 500 from 75 on. Olds pioneered small car power with the QUAD 4 engine that became the new standard for 4 cylinder performance. The last Oldsmobile project before the Stupid idiots at GM merged all divisions into GM powertrain (with the chevy slugs taking the lead) was the AURORA V8 platform for Indy racing that became the Northstar platform. All of these achievments and GM decides that chevy is the standard for all others to be measured by. I am not the only person who will NEVER buy a chevy because of this chevy led GM mis-management. Bring Olds back; they fit as upper class to a chevy with Pontiac-like performance and Buick-like comfort. You can cut about 10 chevy models and redo them Oldsmobile style and make them sell. I would buy one!
Saturn was about to be (and should be) the Opel platform sold in the US. They need to do this because Opel is a good car. I have a place in Bulgaria and family there (in-laws) and I can attest to this. GM needs to buck up, play the stupid EPA games like VW and Mercedes do, and introduce the turbo diesel Opels from europe here. Just do it. I will buy one if you do, GM! I promise!
Please kill Chevy trucks and keep GMC if you must consolidate. You don't have to, though, as both are making profit. Profit is the reason for business decisions. If you make two that are the same with different styling, but they both sell, then why not keep them? How many of us here like our Olds Cutlass styling better than the Monte Carlo? I do, and many people who know they are the same buy the GMC (like me) because I like the way the grille looks better, so why not?
Hummer is a dead dog, so sell it off. Saab has been killed by GM, so bury it too.
These are my opinions, too, but I am business oriented, so what do you think?
I almost forgot to gripe some more about chevy! LOL!
Chevy needs to go back to basics as well. The american people bought a lot of chevy cars from the 50's on, and the reason is simple. No, I mean simplicity...
What made the chevy V8 popular? simplicity of design and ease of working on it. Why did the chevy cars sell so well? Anyone could afford one. When you bought a chevy back then, the only option that really became mainstream was an automatic versus a standard shift transmission. You had roll up windows and rubber floor mats. Cheap stereo and simple vinyl seats. You bought a chevy specifically because you wanted a car to customize and the sky was the limit because you were about to paint your masterpiece on a blank (but very useful) canvas. Go back to what worked. If you take out all the standard bull crap options and go to the basics you could sell tons of Chevy cars in the under 20k dollar range. That was chevy was good at and that is why they sold.
Leave the options for the Olds and Buick guys.
There you go!
Chevy needs to go back to basics as well. The american people bought a lot of chevy cars from the 50's on, and the reason is simple. No, I mean simplicity...
What made the chevy V8 popular? simplicity of design and ease of working on it. Why did the chevy cars sell so well? Anyone could afford one. When you bought a chevy back then, the only option that really became mainstream was an automatic versus a standard shift transmission. You had roll up windows and rubber floor mats. Cheap stereo and simple vinyl seats. You bought a chevy specifically because you wanted a car to customize and the sky was the limit because you were about to paint your masterpiece on a blank (but very useful) canvas. Go back to what worked. If you take out all the standard bull crap options and go to the basics you could sell tons of Chevy cars in the under 20k dollar range. That was chevy was good at and that is why they sold.
Leave the options for the Olds and Buick guys.
There you go!
KrisW - I agree with some of what you said, especially about GM killing Pontiac styling... but they did an awesome job with the G8.. more aggressive like Pontiac always was in years past.
...but around here, I see tons more Pontiac and Saturn vehicles on the road than Buick. The only Buicks I see are driven by 60+ year old seniors... I realize there is the TR crowd like yourself that has a strong following and would hate to see Buick die, but they haven't made a performance car since then, and the only other faithful buyers they have won't be around much longer. Personally, I'd have rather seen Olds stick around - the Cutlass was a best seller for almost it's entire lifespan. GM killed them as well though by changing direction with the spaceship styling.
For the trucks, one needs to go... I only suggest GMC as you can eliminate the brand altogether, but it wouldn't make much of a difference getting rid of Chevy trucks instead. Either way, it's so painfully obvious one needs to go, but of course, GM is keeping both.
I only say Buick should have went if you MUST get rid of one, but if I ran the show, they'd all live, including the revival of Oldsmobile (which will never happen - once any of them are gone, they are gone for good)... with fewer models each and getting back to their roots with more distinct division as you mentioned.
...but around here, I see tons more Pontiac and Saturn vehicles on the road than Buick. The only Buicks I see are driven by 60+ year old seniors... I realize there is the TR crowd like yourself that has a strong following and would hate to see Buick die, but they haven't made a performance car since then, and the only other faithful buyers they have won't be around much longer. Personally, I'd have rather seen Olds stick around - the Cutlass was a best seller for almost it's entire lifespan. GM killed them as well though by changing direction with the spaceship styling.
For the trucks, one needs to go... I only suggest GMC as you can eliminate the brand altogether, but it wouldn't make much of a difference getting rid of Chevy trucks instead. Either way, it's so painfully obvious one needs to go, but of course, GM is keeping both.
I only say Buick should have went if you MUST get rid of one, but if I ran the show, they'd all live, including the revival of Oldsmobile (which will never happen - once any of them are gone, they are gone for good)... with fewer models each and getting back to their roots with more distinct division as you mentioned.
I'm an Olds nut but Buick had the fastest car of the 70's and 80's. Buick Stage 1(Hemi killer) and GNX(Corvette killer)mean anything. Go back to each division's routes might be the key. Chevies were cheap, plain Jane cars, Buick and Cadillac fit the same bill. I hate Saturn because it was chosen over Olds. Pontiac as performance car is a very good idea, kill or restyle the ugly camaro, make it a Firebird. The Firebird was always nicer than the camaro.
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