T-400 draws 500rpm from Chevy 350 in Drive

Bonnewagon

Lost in the Labyrinth
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Those that followed the Holley carb thread know I am fighting a Chevy 350 swap full of headaches. A 1978 Malibu with a Targetmaster 350/ T-400 combination that ran for 10 years, then sat for 20 years. The new Holley 600cfm carb will idle like a champ, 20" vacuum, and wants to melt the tires at WOT. But if you set the idle at 650, which it likes, it runs smooth, but then once you put the trans in D- the engine idle drops 500rpm. Then the engine stalls. We found the sweet spot at 950 rpm idle. It runs 'OK', 18" vacuum, a bit rough, no timing coming in yet. At that idle speed, when you put it in D- it drops 500rpm, down to 450, but stays running, but rough. Driving around, it runs strong, and does not stall at stop signs. But that 950rpm idle is not right, and something is wrong.

I read that a short stroke engine like a Chevy 350 does not have the low end torque to handle a T-400. A big, long stroke engine would just shrug it off. It seems the low torque engine causes the torque converter stall speed to occur at a much lower rpm. I also wondered if the T-400 was out of a huge land yacht the would have had a 455 or so in front of it. But on RockAuto I researched 1970 Chevy converters and found that the difference in stall speed was only 1200/1400 for a 454 vs 1400/1600 for a 350. A peek under the car revealed a short tail housing, so not from a land yacht. The transmission oil is old, but has low miles. I suggested changing it just because.

The Holley site has a cfm application chart. It is the maximum cam rpm, times the cubic inches, divided by a number. A 5000rpm cam 350 engine would want a 540cfm carb. A 6000rpm 350 would want a 600cfm carb. So this carb would seem to be perfect, although it had a 750 on it originally.

We have searched for vacuum leaks, found none, and everything else checks out. No overheating, no backfiring, timing is good, and once rolling, the engine wants to roar. Barring engine problems, the only cure I can think of is a torque converter change to a higher stall speed, or a swap to a manual trans [my favorite].

My question is what in the world would cause that 500 rpm drop?
 

Texas82GP

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DRIVEN

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Sounds like that converter is a little tight. Have you done a stall test yet to see where it flashes?
 
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Bonnewagon

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stall test
Not yet. Not my car. The owner is skitterish. I do intend to, when he is not looking, with an accurate tach.
 
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Bonnewagon

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a good read on the subject.
Yes, it is. Lots of theories and considerations. I liked this one:
"its your carb i just went thru this with my small block it was dropping 500 rpms from park to drive. it had me faustraded change converters samething went to a bigger carb that was tricked out and been threw everything all good so from my experience its the carb"

Well, the only thing that was changed on this car was the carb from 750 to 600cfm. Old mechanic wisdom says go put back whatever you changed and see if it was that. That will have to wait until I have time to open that crusty old 750 and see if it is worth re-building.
 
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Built6spdMCSS

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Jun 15, 2012
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Considering the Convertor is the same for a TH350 and TH400, and putting it in "D" from Park with nothing inside the Transmission moving because the car isn't moving, this part here is irrevellent:

I read that a short stroke engine like a Chevy 350 does not have the low end torque to handle a T-400. A big, long stroke engine would just shrug it off. It seems the low torque engine causes the torque converter stall speed to occur at a much lower rpm.

There is a Convertor issue, as in fins might be bent or bound up. Try a different one.
 
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64nailhead

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How does it feel when put in drive? Does it take more than a normal amount of brake pedal pressure to hold it back? You have to be the judge of that. If you answer is yes, then the converter is the issue. Another way to tell this is if the converter never ‘floats’ when you lift the peddle at highway speeds - it will act like the engine is attached directly to the trans output shaft when decelerating.

If the converter is not the issue, then you have a common issue that develops when a big cam (lopey idle) is being used with a low stall, stockish converter - the converter is dragging the car forward or stalling the motor. Basically, the engine doesn’t make enough power at idle to keep the converter in ‘stall’.

Your issue could definitely be in the carb, but it might not be either. You could try exposing a little more of the idle air bleed slot by opening up the throttle plates a little. Your vacuum source for the dizzy would definitely benefit idle power by using a manifold source for vacuum rather than a ported vacuum source on the carb (above the throttle plates. ) Or perhaps more vacuum advance .

Again I’ll mention, if it takes a lot of effort to hold the car back in drive and zero speed, or when coming to a stop, then the converter is the most likely the culprit if the problem as mentioned by Built6spdMCSS .

Lastly, there s a chance that the vacuum modulator on the trans is messing with you.
 
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SS_Malibu

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The TH400 I got to put behind my 383 was out of an '86 motorhome. It was originally behind a 350. While I did have it completely rebuilt and put a 2.600 stall converter in it, I'm guessing the original stock converter would have been 1,800 to 2,000 ish due to the weight it had to move. I, too, am thinking the stock converter stall you have is a bit low for you 350.
 

64nailhead

Goat Herder
Dec 1, 2014
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The TH400 I got to put behind my 383 was out of an '86 motorhome. It was originally behind a 350. While I did have it completely rebuilt and put a 2.600 stall converter in it, I'm guessing the original stock converter would have been 1,800 to 2,000 ish due to the weight it had to move. I, too, am thinking the stock converter stall you have is a bit low for you 350.
The converter for the motorhome (very heavy) behind a big block would be really tight in a lightweight vehicle with an engine that has 100 ft’lbs, or so, less power at idle.

Agree with this 110%.
 

Bonnewagon

Lost in the Labyrinth
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Convertor is the same for a TH350 and TH400
I always thought they were different. At least that is why there were two different bolt patterns on flywheels. Some had dual patterns. the T-400 is a bit larger too. I read they can actually fit, but will perform differently. I also again read that a smaller engine trying to push a T-400 from a big car would stall at a much lower rpm.
Does it take more than a normal amount of brake pedal pressure to hold it back?
It takes both feet to keep it stopped. But there are brake issues that need to be worked out before any test can be reliable.
I tracked down the original owner and he said none of these problems existed before.
Again, that makes me suspect the carb, the only thing changed.
 

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