PART I: Timing is not advancing on a 1985, 231 Engine

Regalindisimo1985 · Mar 11, 2013

I have a problem with my 1985 Regal 231 v6 engine. The problem is has something to do with timing. The engine is completely stock. I see that timing is not advancing (from the 15 degree requirement) when connected to the four wire connector @ idle. Here is the layout:

Engine: Engine is all stock. 231 v6, 2 barrel Dualjet Rochester carb (electric)

Problem: timing stuck at 15 degrees (does not advance) @ idle when connected

Symptoms: Engine has a slight shake at idle, no check engine lights.

What would be reasons why the timing would not advance @ idle when the 4 wire is connected?

DoubleV · Mar 11, 2013

Re: Timing is not advancing on a 1985, 3800 Engine

First off, you have a 3.8 ( sometimes called a 231 ), not a 3800. A 3800 is a later, more refined version of a 3.8. Now to your question. Are you sure your timing is not advancing? What method are you using to verify this? Are you sure your CE light is working properly? Are you sure your ECM is even working? You never know, your CE and ECM could all be not even connected. You can never tell what kind of butchery has been done to your car in the past.

Regalindisimo1985 · Mar 11, 2013

Re: Timing is not advancing on a 1985, 3800 Engine

I appreciate your response.

The way I verified it was with a timing gun during a warm idle. With the 4 pin connector connected, reading showed 15* @ 790-800 rpm. When I hit the throttle, the engine stabilized and timing did advance then.*******

Should timing advance at idle a few degrees when connecting the 4 pin connector?

The light was on before; "Service engine soon". It no longer lit up when the carb was tuned.

DoubleV · Mar 12, 2013

Re: Timing is not advancing on a 1985, 3800 Engine

Regalindisimo1985 said:
The way I verified it was with a timing gun during a warm idle. With the 4 pin connector connected, reading showed 15* @ 790-800 rpm. When I hit the throttle, the engine stabilized and timing did advance then.*******

I thought you said it wasn't advancing with the connector plugged in?

Should timing advance at idle a few degrees when connecting the 4 pin connector?

Not sure on a 3.8 but it did on my Olds 307. I look at it as simulating what the vacuum advance would be doing if you had an old school distributor plugged into full manifold vacuum. That's why you need to unplug the connector to the distributor when setting the base timing - you want to set the base timing without the ECM altering it in any way.

Regalindisimo1985 · Mar 12, 2013

Re: Timing is not advancing on a 1985, 231 Engine

DoubleV said:
I thought you said it wasn't advancing with the connector plugged in?

My mistake. It happens to me when my thoughts are quicker than my typing speed...

I meant to ask: Should timing be advancing at idle the moment the connector is plugged in?
(because my reading shows an unsteady reading between 15-16* @ idle [790-810 rpm]

DoubleV said:
That's why you need to unplug the connector to the distributor when setting the base timing - you want to set the base timing without the ECM altering it in any way?

This is certain. I double checked to ensure that base timing was done w/ connection disconnected. It reads a STEADY 15* @ idle

DoubleV · Mar 12, 2013

Re: Timing is not advancing on a 1985, 231 Engine

Well if your timing is advancing at rpm ( but not at idle ) and you have no CE light on, then my thoughts are is that everything is fine. I can't see how it would be possible the ECM would advance your timing just fine at rpm but not at idle unless that's just how the timing works on your engine.

Now if you're saying it never advances your timing at any time, you have no CE light on, then I don't know what could possibly cause that. In fact, I wouldn't even think it possible.

Pontiac455 · Mar 12, 2013

Re: Timing is not advancing on a 1985, 231 Engine

No it wont advance, u have to shut off the engine. The ecm won't recognize it until another key cycle...

Regalindisimo1985 · Mar 13, 2013

Re: Timing is not advancing on a 1985, 231 Engine

Pontiac455 said:
No it wont advance, u have to shut off the engine. The ecm won't recognize it until another key cycle...

What is "it" that the ecm will not recognize?

DoubleV said:
Well if your timing is advancing at rpm ( but not at idle ) and you have no CE light on, then my thoughts are is that everything is fine. I can't see how it would be possible the ECM would advance your timing just fine at rpm but not at idle unless that's just how the timing works on your engine...

That's what i'm wondering; what are timing readings on the rest of the 231 v6 engines @ idle?

If anyone can take a quick reading of their timing at idle on a 231 (everything connected), it would surely be appreciated...

(I think i'm confusing the timing advance function of Ford engines because once base timing is set and spout reconnected, timing jumps a few degrees @ idle from the base timing ...)

DoubleV · Mar 13, 2013

Re: Timing is not advancing on a 1985, 231 Engine

Regalindisimo1985 said:
That's what i'm wondering; what are timing readings on the rest of the 231 v6 engines @ idle?
If anyone can take a quick reading of their timing at idle on a 231 (everything connected), it would surely be appreciated...

Can't help you there.

(I think i'm confusing the timing advance function of Ford engines because once base timing is set and spout reconnected, timing jumps a few degrees @ idle from the base timing ...)

Yes, on an old school setup, if you set your base timing then plug your vacuum advance back in, your timing will then jump up even more BUT that's only if you plug it to full manifold vacuum. Some setups have you use ported vacuum in which case your idle timing would not increase.

Regalindisimo1985 · Mar 14, 2013

Re: Timing is not advancing on a 1985, 231 Engine

Did a little searching on the forums and came across this thread dated 5 years ago. This is what the OP had to say:

stocksuspension said:
today i checked my timing. it was at 22 degrees...i checked the timing with warm idle with nothing disconected...today i checked base timing with the connector disconnected. base timing was set at 15 degrees

taken from this thread:
http://gbodyforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3873&p=25041&hilit=dwell#p25041

Does this suggests that the computer advances timing @ idle when connected?

Need more proof of timing readings w/ 4 wire connected on 231 v6 engines to make sure if this is correct...

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PART I: Timing is not advancing on a 1985, 231 Engine

Regalindisimo1985

Not-quite-so-new-guy

DoubleV

Royal Smart Person

Regalindisimo1985

Not-quite-so-new-guy

DoubleV

Royal Smart Person

Regalindisimo1985

Not-quite-so-new-guy

DoubleV

Royal Smart Person

Pontiac455

Master Mechanic

Regalindisimo1985

Not-quite-so-new-guy

DoubleV

Royal Smart Person

Regalindisimo1985

Not-quite-so-new-guy

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