'86 2004r differences?

spidereyes455

spidereyes455

Master Mechanic
Mar 6, 2013
429
93
Northeastern PA
When I finally got and installed an 87 kzf for my 87 442 you could not feel any of the shifts. It didn't slip at all just really no feel to the shifts. I removed the servo and found the smallest servo I've ever seen in a 2004r ,noticeably smaller than any mcss or even standard 200. I installed a CK performance billet servo and now it has nice crisp shifts that will bark second with heavy throttle. Every thing I've read about the kzf says shift points are about 4800 mine are a bit higher 1-2 is 5500 and 2-3 3-4 are about 5000. This is a sub 80k trans that's never been apart.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: 69hurstolds
69hurstolds

69hurstolds

Comic Book Super Hero
Jan 2, 2006
2,862
113
When I finally got and installed an 87 kzf for my 87 442 you could not feel any of the shifts. It didn't slip at all just really no feel to the shifts. I removed the servo and found the smallest servo I've ever seen in a 2004r ,noticeably smaller than any mcss or even standard 200. I installed a CK performance billet servo and now it has nice crisp shifts that will bark second with heavy throttle. Every thing I've read about the kzf says shift points are about 4800 mine are a bit higher 1-2 is 5500 and 2-3 3-4 are about 5000. This is a sub 80k trans that's never been apart.
I agree. My 87 442 has 23K on it, and it shifts quickly and firm. You can't really feel it per se, it's just that you know that it's from 1 to 2 right away without being very noticeable. Not sloppy, but not pronounced. It's a bit better than the typical slushbox. Rear gears probably help it. I'm sure you can beef up a KZF or any transmission for that matter with a bigger servo. Good info to know, I've never had a KZF apart. It's a wives' tale that probably has a bit of truth to it that the KZF's were toned down on the shift points as not to be critically harsh on the shifts. Whether the reason is true or not, who knows. But the fact remains that they did tone it down.
 
spidereyes455

spidereyes455

Master Mechanic
Mar 6, 2013
429
93
Northeastern PA
87 kzf on left mcss/ generic 2004r on right
20191124_181202.jpg
20191124_181239.jpg

87 kzf
20191124_181640.jpg

Mcss/ generic 2004r
20191124_181610.jpg
 
gnvair

gnvair

Master Mechanic
Sep 1, 2018
421
63
Southern New Jersey near Philly
Thought GN's/turbos were the only ones with 2400 stall converters?
The D5 torque converter was shared between the different performance models. The stall speed variations were due to the torque output of the different engines with the turbo Buick producing the most torque and thus causing it to stall at a higher rpm.
 
Gonzo1970

Gonzo1970

G-Body Guru
Supporting Member
Sep 30, 2018
645
93
Makes me wonder what 200R4 I have.. 69HurstOlds explained mine exactly.. Shifts quick and firm.. pronounced.. not your typical slushbox shifting.

-Gonz
 
69hurstolds

69hurstolds

Comic Book Super Hero
Jan 2, 2006
2,862
113
A lot of factors can make the difference in how a transmission launches and shifts as well. If there's burrs or dirt, or not quite so tight tolerances/adjustments, or as mentioned, input torque to the converter.

It's not an exact science.
 
spidereyes455

spidereyes455

Master Mechanic
Mar 6, 2013
429
93
Northeastern PA
Makes me wonder what 200R4 I have.. 69HurstOlds explained mine exactly.. Shifts quick and firm.. pronounced.. not your typical slushbox shifting.

-Gonz
The ID tag should be on pass side of the tail at the very rear. Being your car has an LG4 305 I'd almost put money on it being a CRF.
 
H

hoffa65

Master Mechanic
Mar 11, 2019
285
63
Atlanta GA
Thats a myth someone started many years ago. SS, 442, Hurst and GN had the same converter D 2400 stall. Now if you are at a junk yard and come across a Caddy limo year 85-88 look at the Vin. They came with olds vin 9 motor, 2400 stall D converter and a little higher shifting vavle body than a stock 200r4. I have the code for the trans written down, just need to find it.
From my experience all D5 converters are not the same. All converters have or had at one time and 4 letter code along with the PN tag on them. The 4 letter code breaks down as
1st letter = trans type
2nd letter= K factor aka stall speed
3rd letter= clutch type
4th letter = cover type aka clutch and lug type

D5 stall speed is pretty much the same,but the clutch rating and degree of engagement vary, along with the HO's having the NO poppet valve

Examples of some of the D5 differences are
84 HO = CB9D PN 8639265
86 GN = CBCF PN 8653420
87 MCSS = CBBF
86 MCLS = CG6F PN 8653154 (D6)

Attached are pics of the different TC's and a break down of the coding
20190221_112250.jpg

84 HO
20190414_221612.jpg

86 GN
20190510_022829.jpg

87 MCSS
20190221_112237.jpg

86 MCLS
20190221_201658.jpg
 
Last edited:
gnvair

gnvair

Master Mechanic
Sep 1, 2018
421
63
Southern New Jersey near Philly
The torque converter info is interesting. From my own experience, the stall speed numbers only varied because of torque output. I put an 86 turbo Buick engine into my father's low mileage 88 Monte SS using the stock CZF trans and D5 converter. The Monte SS D5 converter stalled about the same (approx 2200 rpms) as a Turbo Buick D5. I had spoken to the guy who I have bought converters from several times over the years about the D5 converters. His response was that any differences between the factory ones were very slight nuanced differences. So from my own experiences the SS D5 performed exactly like the turbo Buick version.
 
  • Like
Reactions: olds307 and 403

Please support GBodyForum Sponsors

Classic Truck ConsolesDixie Restoration DepotMike's MontesP-S-TSouthside Machine PerformanceUMI Performance

contact[email protected]for info on becoming a sponsor