Cutlass starter update and an alternator question of my own

[mikester]

I received a private message from the guy with the Cutlass starting problem in MN. He accidentally deleted his thread but he says to thank everyone who replied and he thinks hes got the problem solved. Its a good thing.

Now my question. Since the threads deleted Im not 100% sure who wrote this but maybe pontiacgp ?? Someone said my alternator plug wires are reversed. Its not a big deal to take pop the terminals out and switch them around but is this correct ?
I checked out my friends 79 Camaro and his is the same as mine. Then I remembered I havent done anything with the harness in the wagon yet so I looked at the alternator plug. Again, same as what I did in the 81. Is it right or not ? Brown goes to the bulkhead connection and the red goes into the factory junction with wires to the starter. Basically I redid what was there.

 

[pontiacgp]

I was the one who said his wires were backwards, he had a replacement plug with the red going to the brown and the white attached to the red. The brown goes to the bulkhead and I have the red wire going to the B terminal on the alternator and an 8 gauge wire from the alternator

 

[CopperNick]

In that 2 prong plug, one is for the field and the other for the armature (commutator). Pure guesstimate here but seem to recall brown being the one whose circuit includes the ignition switch and, in this case, red being the one that ends up on the battery terminal on the starter solenoid. (Could be wrong--wouldn't be the first time.) The wire to the #10 stud off by itself that goes to the battery ought to be at least 10ga, or even heavier. As a suggestion, there is an adaptor available, got mine from NAPA many years ago, that comes with a diode and allows you to go with a one wire style configuration. The kit was about as close to plug and play as anything automotive electrical could be. It may still be out there from some supplier. Went true one wire on all my toys a few years ago as it simplified the wiring and any electrical troubleshooting.

 

[mikester]

I was the one who said his wires were backwards, he had a replacement plug with the red going to the brown and the white attached to the red. The brown goes to the bulkhead and I have the red wire going to the B terminal on the alternator and an 8 gauge wire from the alternator

So the plug in the first picture is correct right ? Brown goes to the bulkhead and the red goes into a junction of 4 wires. The other hot wire from the alternator also went into that connector. From there one goes to the starter and the last goes to the bulkhead. I have no idea why GM had this wired that way but I know its was factory. I found the same setup in a Monte harness at the local junkyard. BTW, I did this twice due to a broken fusible link wire so at this point all the wires from the alternator and bulkhead to the starter are new.
Same Monte that had the crazy junction in the harness that was wrapped with tape in the last photo. I found that when I cut into the harness to get the three terminal buss to repair the fuse block in my car.

 

[fleming442]

To simplify things: the red in the plug usually just gets looped to the charge stud. That's the quick and dirty way, but I can't help to think that somewhere closer to the battery positive would kick the alternator on earlier since it isn't referencing itself.

 

[CopperNick]

Boy, does that multi-wire clusterf*** bring back memories. First ran into that configuration in a MonteCarlo that had the first generation electronically controlled carburetor. That battery stud on the starter must have had 3 or 4 large ring terminals attached to it. most of which had burnt when the controller crashed. And, just like you mentioned, when I peeled the tape off, there was this open sleeve/crimp/solder with multiple red wires coming and going out of it.

The fusible links were another horror story. Originally designed as a safety device to prevent shorts from causing fires by self destructing, their location is a major pain in the *ss because GM puts them in the last 2-3 inches of the wires going to that, you guessed it, large battery terminal on the solenoid. When they fry, it becomes a monumental headache to reconstruct them because the wires to which they are attached dive almost immediately into a metal sleeve that is attached to the bell housing and which brings them up behind the block where they exit and go their separate ways. No room or slack to repair them. What I ended up doing was eliminating them altogether and substituting a pair of circuit breakers that I built a small panel for, and which I located adjacent to the battery. I also used that same panel as a place to put the relay for the starter. By using a relay, I am sending 13.2 volts directly to the starter solenoid and eliminating potential voltage drop in the circuit due to resistance based on distance. This also benefits the key switch because it now only has to feed power to the relay to actuate it. The net result is more power to the starter motor allowing it to crank faster so the motor will fire more quickly. As an alternative you could do something similar with a pair of in line fuses, either glass or the newer ??? ones rated at a capacity that would allow the starter motor to wind out without blowing because of the draw-30 Amp? and locate them somewhere discrete yet more accessible. The main difference between the two options is that the breakers will reset themselves; the fuses have to be replaced. Either way you still have to locate and repair the short that caused them to blow.
Why GM chose to have it G-bodies graced with this mess of electrical spaghetti is a question for the ages; probably a combination of bean counter penny pinching and efficiency expert less time-more production- philosophical mumbo-jumbo. Don't think anyone ever bothered to ask the technicians and the garage guys if the corporate way was the right or best way.

 

[mikester]

Boy, does that multi-wire clusterf*** bring back memories. First ran into that configuration in a MonteCarlo that had the first generation electronically controlled carburetor. That battery stud on the starter must have had 3 or 4 large ring terminals attached to it. most of which had burnt when the controller crashed. And, just like you mentioned, when I peeled the tape off, there was this open sleeve/crimp/solder with multiple red wires coming and going out of it.

The fusible links were another horror story. Originally designed as a safety device to prevent shorts from causing fires by self destructing, their location is a major pain in the *ss because GM puts them in the last 2-3 inches of the wires going to that, you guessed it, large battery terminal on the solenoid. When they fry, it becomes a monumental headache to reconstruct them because the wires to which they are attached dive almost immediately into a metal sleeve that is attached to the bell housing and which brings them up behind the block where they exit and go their separate ways. No room or slack to repair them. What I ended up doing was eliminating them altogether and substituting a pair of circuit breakers that I built a small panel for, and which I located adjacent to the battery. I also used that same panel as a place to put the relay for the starter. By using a relay, I am sending 13.2 volts directly to the starter solenoid and eliminating potential voltage drop in the circuit due to resistance based on distance. This also benefits the key switch because it now only has to feed power to the relay to actuate it. The net result is more power to the starter motor allowing it to crank faster so the motor will fire more quickly. As an alternative you could do something similar with a pair of in line fuses, either glass or the newer ??? ones rated at a capacity that would allow the starter motor to wind out without blowing because of the draw-30 Amp? and locate them somewhere discrete yet more accessible. The main difference between the two options is that the breakers will reset themselves; the fuses have to be replaced. Either way you still have to locate and repair the short that caused them to blow.
Why GM chose to have it G-bodies graced with this mess of electrical spaghetti is a question for the ages; probably a combination of bean counter penny pinching and efficiency expert less time-more production- philosophical mumbo-jumbo. Don't think anyone ever bothered to ask the technicians and the garage guys if the corporate way was the right or best way.

When I redid the junction thats coming from the alternator I I was thinking about deleting totally and running home runs to the firewall and starter. Then I figured maybe there was a reason that GM did it so I just copied the original setup. Wiring has never been my strong point.

 

[CopperNick]

Wiring, mostly, involves a lot of common sense plus a very healthy dose of the proverbial patience of Job. Effectively, you are dealing with a project that can be anywhere from 41 years old at the oldest, through to 31 years old at the newest. Age and decay are the enemy when it comes to wiring because both the insulation and the wire are sensitive; the insulation to UV degradation, and the copper to rust/rot/breakage. Mice, squirrels, anything with the urge and teeth to gnaw can destroy a wiring harness.
Before tackling any kind of wiring project you will need a correct wiring diagram for the vehicle. Failing that, a good camera with an SD card or a cell phone with a camera and a good memory card. Take LOTS of pictures; they are your best friend when it comes to remembering what goes where. Along with the pics, have a steno pad and a pencil handy to take notes about colors and what color wire is going to where from where. If you plan on repairing or modifying a circuit, do ONLY one at a time, or one portion of it, to keep things simple. If replacing wires, use, at least, the same gauge as the factory used, or better, one gauge heavier. Example, if the circuit uses 16 ga, and you can buy 14 ga in the same color use the heavier gauge. Using the heavier gauge allows easier current flow and less resistance in the wire which means less heat. Wires get hot because they are overloaded or there is high resistance in them due to age and corrosion or bad connections. A hot wire is a fire waiting to happen. Be aware that, in wiring, the smaller the number, the heavier the gauge of wire until you get to "0" which is entering welding cable country and good for battery cables. After that, speak to an electrician.

The type of connector to use, and the method of attaching it, is an ongoing argument that has many opinions attached to it. For myself I prefer solder, even if I am working with Weather Pack fittings which are a crimp. A touch or lick of solder once the crimp is made guarantees that the connection won't separate even if Arnie is tugging on it. if you have to go the crimp connector route, get a good crimping tool. If I know that a crimp connection is the only option I try to get the ones minus the plastic sleeve, make the crimp, and slide a length of heat shrink tubing over it and use a butane torch or even a Bic throwaway lighter to shrink it down to obtain some insulation. If you leave the sleeve, then you can use a slightly larger dia of heat shrink, tease it over the plastic sleeve and then heat it up to get it to shrink down. At least doing that you can hide the ugly aspect of the plastic. Where the auto store crimp connectors are the most valuable is in your trunk tool box for the S*** happens problems that occur in the middle of nowhere and a 150 miles away from Bumfuque (Insert name of state here). They will work to get you back on the road and somewhere else where you can the repair correctly.

After all this, wiring is, like pretty much like anything else that gets done around here, a learning process. I hate it so I got reasonably good at it so I would only have to do it once!!

Nick

 

[fleming442]

Packard wire is the shizznit. As long as it is protected from water, it doesn't get much better.

 

[mikester]

Wiring, mostly, involves a lot of common sense plus a very healthy dose of the proverbial patience of Job. Effectively, you are dealing with a project that can be anywhere from 41 years old at the oldest, through to 31 years old at the newest. Age and decay are the enemy when it comes to wiring because both the insulation and the wire are sensitive; the insulation to UV degradation, and the copper to rust/rot/breakage. Mice, squirrels, anything with the urge and teeth to gnaw can destroy a wiring harness.
Before tackling any kind of wiring project you will need a correct wiring diagram for the vehicle. Failing that, a good camera with an SD card or a cell phone with a camera and a good memory card. Take LOTS of pictures; they are your best friend when it comes to remembering what goes where. Along with the pics, have a steno pad and a pencil handy to take notes about colors and what color wire is going to where from where. If you plan on repairing or modifying a circuit, do ONLY one at a time, or one portion of it, to keep things simple. If replacing wires, use, at least, the same gauge as the factory used, or better, one gauge heavier. Example, if the circuit uses 16 ga, and you can buy 14 ga in the same color use the heavier gauge. Using the heavier gauge allows easier current flow and less resistance in the wire which means less heat. Wires get hot because they are overloaded or there is high resistance in them due to age and corrosion or bad connections. A hot wire is a fire waiting to happen. Be aware that, in wiring, the smaller the number, the heavier the gauge of wire until you get to "0" which is entering welding cable country and good for battery cables. After that, speak to an electrician.

The type of connector to use, and the method of attaching it, is an ongoing argument that has many opinions attached to it. For myself I prefer solder, even if I am working with Weather Pack fittings which are a crimp. A touch or lick of solder once the crimp is made guarantees that the connection won't separate even if Arnie is tugging on it. if you have to go the crimp connector route, get a good crimping tool. If I know that a crimp connection is the only option I try to get the ones minus the plastic sleeve, make the crimp, and slide a length of heat shrink tubing over it and use a butane torch or even a Bic throwaway lighter to shrink it down to obtain some insulation. If you leave the sleeve, then you can use a slightly larger dia of heat shrink, tease it over the plastic sleeve and then heat it up to get it to shrink down. At least doing that you can hide the ugly aspect of the plastic. Where the auto store crimp connectors are the most valuable is in your trunk tool box for the S*** happens problems that occur in the middle of nowhere and a 150 miles away from Bumfuque (Insert name of state here). They will work to get you back on the road and somewhere else where you can the repair correctly.

After all this, wiring is, like pretty much like anything else that gets done around here, a learning process. I hate it so I got reasonably good at it so I would only have to do it once!!

Nick

Be glad youre not my neighbor Nick ! I'd be asking you questions daily !! LOL
I think I did the right thing when I rewired most of the harnesses. Although I didnt go a gauge size larger I used a lot of marine grade wire which has more strands. The issue was buying the amounts that I needed in the correct colors. Finally I started to deal with a place in MI that sold multiple colors of TXL and GXL automotive grade wire in 25' coils. As soon as I found them I bought coils of purple and pink 12ga. They were the hardest to find. LOL
Ive been soldering wire for years and try to stay away from crimp terminals unless theyre used for something simple like the micro switches on the shifter or the Autometer gauges that I put in in both cars. Everything else soldered is covered with adhesive shrink tubing. Even the ends of crimped terminals since I hate to see multiple color terminals under the hood. I try to do a neat job and usually leave some slack so stuff can be worked on.
I also found a place in TX that sells Packard 56 and 59 terminals. Another plus when it comes to rewiring the bulkhead connection. Even bought two different crimping tools just to do those.
What really sucks is as soon as the 81 is down off the stands I have to finish the wagon. This stuffs wearing me out. I just hope the second one will be easier but I kinda doubt it.