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So this got dropped in my lap yesterday. It's a Crusader hull. The engine was mounted to a Berkely jet in a Three point stance. Meaning, two front feet, utilizing mounts coming off of the stock location and thru bolted at the stringer with a Bell housing in the rear. Not a lot of adjustability and over the years, the stringer will give way, the front of the engine will start to drop as the bolt holes elongate. Sometimes, the oil pan will hit the pump bolts and hole the pan, other times the resulting vibrations wipe out the bushings in the pump. The best way to deal with this is to do rail kits. I rigged this boat last year and told the owner he will need to do rails. It's also his first jet. He's already wanting more speed, so it's immediatly getting more carb and we are discussing a different roller cam, for more top end power. It's a Dale Green 468 BBC. The Crusader Tunnel hull is a sweet design. Watch out for these on the river. They look like regular Vee Hulls, but are actually Tunnels and will kick your unsuspecting *ss!
The Tunnel
You can see where it was mounted before
Motor and Jet
I'll post up pics of the cure.
The Tunnel
You can see where it was mounted before
Motor and Jet
I'll post up pics of the cure.
I'll be waiting for "the cure".
If you get a few extra minutes can you educate me/us on some of the principles involved. When designing and building a boat what are the ideal combinations? Is peak power more important than low-end torque or the other way around? Are the requirements different for a jet vs prop (v-drive)? Is the power output of a jet more linear or exponential like a turbo? What are the standard available hull designs and in what way does each shine? Sorry if these seem like broad, stupid questions but I'm really curious. Like i mentioned earlier, my background is in a different arena where the hulls are all very similar and there are basically only two drivetrain choices - 350 or 351. I realize you could probably put on a week long seminar and barely scratch the surface but I'd really appreciate some basic info.
If you get a few extra minutes can you educate me/us on some of the principles involved. When designing and building a boat what are the ideal combinations? Is peak power more important than low-end torque or the other way around? Are the requirements different for a jet vs prop (v-drive)? Is the power output of a jet more linear or exponential like a turbo? What are the standard available hull designs and in what way does each shine? Sorry if these seem like broad, stupid questions but I'm really curious. Like i mentioned earlier, my background is in a different arena where the hulls are all very similar and there are basically only two drivetrain choices - 350 or 351. I realize you could probably put on a week long seminar and barely scratch the surface but I'd really appreciate some basic info.
thanks for the reply and info. , im with driven, any and all info you have the time and desire to drop on us muh appreciated. i take it the principal of the tunnel hull is that less surface area is in/on the water so it creates les drag resulting in more speed ? i know all these killer boats i see are sporting mega-cube big bloaks pushing 700 H.P. and up, but im thinking for my first foray into the world of boats i have a nice 350 crate motor i want to build. when you get a chance, can i ask your opinions on jet verse prop drive ?
The Debate over which hull and propulsion system goes on and on, in a never ending death spiral. All I can give you guys is MY opinion, which is based on MY personal experience.
Propulsion. The most efficient drive system is direct drive prop. Propellers are designated and stamped in the hub area with a number like this 14X22 This means 14" diameter, 22" of theoretical forward movement per revolution. There are a lot of different propellor configurations. If you have a boat with an engine that makes it's best power at 5700 RPM, but it will only spin 5200 RPM you need to pull prop. It's like being stuffed into overdrive too early. (That being said, I am taking it for granted you already have the proper sized induction, correct timing, fuel pressure and adequate air is available) OK, That covers (Well, actually just touches prop sizing) Props
Jets. There are a couple style. Axial and Vane. The Axial looks much like a propellor inside a tube. Not too efficient, OK for low HP, Low RPM applications. Think 21 Foot Daycruiser, 450HP Big Block of your choice. You are going to get a good 50-60 MPH and have a good time. Fuel efficency? Not bad, if you don't go wide open an stay there all day.
Vane style will be an actual impeller. It will have an outer ring and a wear ring that is closely matched. Clearanced for the river around .035". Race set around .015" The closer the set, the more efficient the pump is. However, if you get sand or other debris into a close set pump, the impeller's ring will have an interfefence and will "Bite" the wear ring. It will usuall slip (Twist) the ring and then your clearances are all out the window. Impellers come most readily in Aluminum. $350 or so. Silicone Bronze, Tougher for more RPM and HP. Better resistance to cracking and wear, lasts longer $800 ish and Stainless Steel. In the upper classed engines, you need these. $1200 and up, depending on detailing.
There are other drives, I/O, Transmissions, reduction boxes and Arneson Surface piercing props too. Efficiency is the main driver here. For your family cruiser, you could and many people do , run an I/O. It takes power to go through all the gearing, but if you're not all out, that's an acceptable loss.
What you have to think about is:
Application. Speed or Comfort.
Environmental. Lake and Sound/ Ocean cruising or River, where there will be submerged obstacles
Safety. Ski boat? Who's going to drive it? Going to a populated area? I have seen and heard of more than a few people getting chopped up by propellers, either backing the vessel up, or people getting up on the swim step with the boat idling and you natural instinct is to kick your way up. If that prop is rotating, you just lost a foot. It's a bad, bad way to start or end your vacation.
I gotta go do some more welding, but will post up hull design and power options tonight hopefully. Cheers-
Matt
Propulsion. The most efficient drive system is direct drive prop. Propellers are designated and stamped in the hub area with a number like this 14X22 This means 14" diameter, 22" of theoretical forward movement per revolution. There are a lot of different propellor configurations. If you have a boat with an engine that makes it's best power at 5700 RPM, but it will only spin 5200 RPM you need to pull prop. It's like being stuffed into overdrive too early. (That being said, I am taking it for granted you already have the proper sized induction, correct timing, fuel pressure and adequate air is available) OK, That covers (Well, actually just touches prop sizing) Props
Jets. There are a couple style. Axial and Vane. The Axial looks much like a propellor inside a tube. Not too efficient, OK for low HP, Low RPM applications. Think 21 Foot Daycruiser, 450HP Big Block of your choice. You are going to get a good 50-60 MPH and have a good time. Fuel efficency? Not bad, if you don't go wide open an stay there all day.
Vane style will be an actual impeller. It will have an outer ring and a wear ring that is closely matched. Clearanced for the river around .035". Race set around .015" The closer the set, the more efficient the pump is. However, if you get sand or other debris into a close set pump, the impeller's ring will have an interfefence and will "Bite" the wear ring. It will usuall slip (Twist) the ring and then your clearances are all out the window. Impellers come most readily in Aluminum. $350 or so. Silicone Bronze, Tougher for more RPM and HP. Better resistance to cracking and wear, lasts longer $800 ish and Stainless Steel. In the upper classed engines, you need these. $1200 and up, depending on detailing.
There are other drives, I/O, Transmissions, reduction boxes and Arneson Surface piercing props too. Efficiency is the main driver here. For your family cruiser, you could and many people do , run an I/O. It takes power to go through all the gearing, but if you're not all out, that's an acceptable loss.
What you have to think about is:
Application. Speed or Comfort.
Environmental. Lake and Sound/ Ocean cruising or River, where there will be submerged obstacles
Safety. Ski boat? Who's going to drive it? Going to a populated area? I have seen and heard of more than a few people getting chopped up by propellers, either backing the vessel up, or people getting up on the swim step with the boat idling and you natural instinct is to kick your way up. If that prop is rotating, you just lost a foot. It's a bad, bad way to start or end your vacation.
I gotta go do some more welding, but will post up hull design and power options tonight hopefully. Cheers-
Matt
Thanks for the writeup. I'm sure it's probably hard for you to come out of racer mode to dumb it down for the rest of us but it is appreciated. I have some ideas on what I'd like to end up with but I'd love to be set straight before I make a stupid mistake. Like I said earlier, I'm just looking for a toy - not a racer. More flash than dash. I wouldn't think of using it as a ski boat -- That's what ski boats are for :lol: . Something along these lines:
I know a jet would be simpler and, in theory, more reliable. Having spent plenty of time navigating docks and crowded boat launches I was thinking a V-drive would be better suited for my needs. I need some low speed steering and reverse. I know the Casale boxes can be had with reverse. I have also seen Powerglides between the engine and an in/out box. Here's some questions I have.
-What power levels are required for a 60-70mph speed?
-Build for HP or torque?
-Do you select props and gears to match peak HP or past that rpm?
-Would my Cadillac fantasy be a bad idea?
-Any advantage to the Powerglide over the reverse box?
-At what power level does a cavitation plate become necessary? Adjustable vs. fixed?
-Any specific hull design to seek out or avoid for this particular application?
-Other factors to keep in mind?
Ideally, I would find a complete or mostly complete boat and just tweak it because I know that makes the most sense financially. There are always cheap projects that are really tempting though...
On a side note- I have this list of toys I want to own/build. Typically I have more fun building stuff than actually playing with them. The generic 21' daycruiser you mentioned is on my list as well as a early 70's Nautique (like the one my dad had when I was a kid) or a late 70's stars n stripes Mastercraft. Like the sandrail I built, I expect to build it my way, run a couple tanks of fuel through it, lose interest, sell it and be on to the next distraction.
I know a jet would be simpler and, in theory, more reliable. Having spent plenty of time navigating docks and crowded boat launches I was thinking a V-drive would be better suited for my needs. I need some low speed steering and reverse. I know the Casale boxes can be had with reverse. I have also seen Powerglides between the engine and an in/out box. Here's some questions I have.
-What power levels are required for a 60-70mph speed?
-Build for HP or torque?
-Do you select props and gears to match peak HP or past that rpm?
-Would my Cadillac fantasy be a bad idea?
-Any advantage to the Powerglide over the reverse box?
-At what power level does a cavitation plate become necessary? Adjustable vs. fixed?
-Any specific hull design to seek out or avoid for this particular application?
-Other factors to keep in mind?
Ideally, I would find a complete or mostly complete boat and just tweak it because I know that makes the most sense financially. There are always cheap projects that are really tempting though...
On a side note- I have this list of toys I want to own/build. Typically I have more fun building stuff than actually playing with them. The generic 21' daycruiser you mentioned is on my list as well as a early 70's Nautique (like the one my dad had when I was a kid) or a late 70's stars n stripes Mastercraft. Like the sandrail I built, I expect to build it my way, run a couple tanks of fuel through it, lose interest, sell it and be on to the next distraction.
Driven,
I still like the looks of the old vintage SK type boats. Everything today seems to be based more on the picklefork hydro design...which I realize is a lot faster.
A guy I knew (back in '60's) had one powered by a built sbc 327, 2 x 4's on a crossram manifold, V-drive and open headers.
I had the pleasure of riding in it. I would say that boat was in the 70-80mph range. Still pretty fast on the water.
Being a flat bottom boat, it didn't stay in the water...it was more airborne. I think they're more intended as a lake boat.
I still like the looks of the old vintage SK type boats. Everything today seems to be based more on the picklefork hydro design...which I realize is a lot faster.
A guy I knew (back in '60's) had one powered by a built sbc 327, 2 x 4's on a crossram manifold, V-drive and open headers.
I had the pleasure of riding in it. I would say that boat was in the 70-80mph range. Still pretty fast on the water.
Being a flat bottom boat, it didn't stay in the water...it was more airborne. I think they're more intended as a lake boat.
Ok, welding done for the day. Ya, I like the SK hulls too for nostalgia. The Jones boats out of Seattle ran hard. I forget which of the brothers died while racing, but that took it out of the others. They abondoned their racing endevors and concentrated on the yachts. (Delta marine)
I've had numerous Vee Hulls, Hondo Tee decks have always been one of my favorites. Arenacraft, Cole (Splash from a Hondo) The ride from a shallow vee hull can beat you up pretty good. Vee drives with adjustable cav. plates do pretty good, but if you get into moderate chop, you will have the nose buried in the water to have any ride quality at all. The Vee's in the 18'-19' range are great lake boats that typically haul two people, a small cooler and your pop up umbrella. If you really like the vee looks, get a vee tunnel, like this crusader I'm doing work to now. Excellent ride characteristics and still retaining the traditional look. I didn't even think about ride or room, until I was down on the lower columbia river and my Buddy Tony Skagen casually said, "Take your wife out for a run in my 21'.." I grabbed Kim and we headed out. Huge mistake. I had been running pretty fast Vee hulls my whole life and like most guys, didn't care for the look of the pickles. The vee hulls with a jet kind of power slide if you have no rudder, the vee hulls have a tendency to really bite and turn hard, if you want. We were going by the beach around 90 or so, the ride was unbelievable. Smooth, fast, controllable. Running a Blown carb'd 496. My wife said then and there, we needed one. I sold the Hondo that next wekend and bought Blown Away. A 19' Eliminator, Daytona. The cockpit was smaller in the Tunnel than the vee and you really feel like you are sitting ON rather than IN the boat. That took some getting used to. I ran a Blown 468 in the boat for two seasons. The difference between a 19 and a 21 is night and day. After summer of '08, my pal had to have Blown Away and I sold it, hoping to take a year off and finish some projects around here.
Another buddy of mine intently started the search for my replacement. I told him I wasn't even looking, but you know how friends are. He found Marty Stretch's old boat, called the Stretch Limo. That boat ran a best of 8.56@ 127 plus on the record and around 133GPS. He wanted too much money so I just said no. But through a number of days negotiating, Me and Bad Luck Tony headed down to Bakersfield to buy a boat. To put things into perspective, I paid $23,000 cash. But, the boat needed everything to make it mine. It took a year of building, I missed '09 and made it for 2010 and forth. I'm somewhere North of $75,000 into it. I gotta stop counting, cuz I'll get sick.
The day I got it home. Next to Blown Away on the beach.
like I say, I immediatle stripped it.
Woring on the mill
Going back together
All new Autometers
The new switchgear
Bilge pumps and battery boxes I fabbed up
The Buggy Spring tandem axle trailer had to go
My wife cleaning the Transome
I fabricate my own Panhard Bars and Trailing Arms
...and on the triple Axle Air ride Trailer
Obviously, you can take your hobby to whatever level of insanity you desire. The Vee hulls can be had, running, on Trailers for around $4000. They really like Cubic inches and too much carb. As far as what spped you need cav plates? It depends on hull design, weight displacement, prop size and so forth. The different combinations that people come up with never cease to amaze me. My motor on the Dyno made 1183HP at 6200RPM. I'd have to go get the dynp sheets to find torque. Darin's did 941 Motor only (565) and 1388 on the Bottle (Nitrous)
More than that, though is Hydrodyanimics. It takes more than gobs of HP to go fast. I know with a 468 makin near 1000 on the bottle, we took the trophy home inthe 9 second Bracket, with Darin's boat and him Driving. We threw another $50,000 at the motor and couldn't get it faster than 8.6 seconds. It went to B1 Racing in Aneheim for bottom work and this year, we hope for the 8 second Trophy, or the quick 6.
My advice is to buy a mildly beat runner. Start slow, you will get bit hard soon enough for more speed. Find out what haunts you. Go for a few rides in other boats. Talk, yak it up, look into other forums. I belong to SkagenBoats.com and you will find me there. My name is the Habitual Offender and our camp is WFR (WhiteFlagRacing)
Lets have some fun. Cheers- Matt
I've had numerous Vee Hulls, Hondo Tee decks have always been one of my favorites. Arenacraft, Cole (Splash from a Hondo) The ride from a shallow vee hull can beat you up pretty good. Vee drives with adjustable cav. plates do pretty good, but if you get into moderate chop, you will have the nose buried in the water to have any ride quality at all. The Vee's in the 18'-19' range are great lake boats that typically haul two people, a small cooler and your pop up umbrella. If you really like the vee looks, get a vee tunnel, like this crusader I'm doing work to now. Excellent ride characteristics and still retaining the traditional look. I didn't even think about ride or room, until I was down on the lower columbia river and my Buddy Tony Skagen casually said, "Take your wife out for a run in my 21'.." I grabbed Kim and we headed out. Huge mistake. I had been running pretty fast Vee hulls my whole life and like most guys, didn't care for the look of the pickles. The vee hulls with a jet kind of power slide if you have no rudder, the vee hulls have a tendency to really bite and turn hard, if you want. We were going by the beach around 90 or so, the ride was unbelievable. Smooth, fast, controllable. Running a Blown carb'd 496. My wife said then and there, we needed one. I sold the Hondo that next wekend and bought Blown Away. A 19' Eliminator, Daytona. The cockpit was smaller in the Tunnel than the vee and you really feel like you are sitting ON rather than IN the boat. That took some getting used to. I ran a Blown 468 in the boat for two seasons. The difference between a 19 and a 21 is night and day. After summer of '08, my pal had to have Blown Away and I sold it, hoping to take a year off and finish some projects around here.
Another buddy of mine intently started the search for my replacement. I told him I wasn't even looking, but you know how friends are. He found Marty Stretch's old boat, called the Stretch Limo. That boat ran a best of 8.56@ 127 plus on the record and around 133GPS. He wanted too much money so I just said no. But through a number of days negotiating, Me and Bad Luck Tony headed down to Bakersfield to buy a boat. To put things into perspective, I paid $23,000 cash. But, the boat needed everything to make it mine. It took a year of building, I missed '09 and made it for 2010 and forth. I'm somewhere North of $75,000 into it. I gotta stop counting, cuz I'll get sick.
The day I got it home. Next to Blown Away on the beach.
like I say, I immediatle stripped it.
Woring on the mill
Going back together
All new Autometers
The new switchgear
Bilge pumps and battery boxes I fabbed up
The Buggy Spring tandem axle trailer had to go
My wife cleaning the Transome
I fabricate my own Panhard Bars and Trailing Arms
...and on the triple Axle Air ride Trailer
Obviously, you can take your hobby to whatever level of insanity you desire. The Vee hulls can be had, running, on Trailers for around $4000. They really like Cubic inches and too much carb. As far as what spped you need cav plates? It depends on hull design, weight displacement, prop size and so forth. The different combinations that people come up with never cease to amaze me. My motor on the Dyno made 1183HP at 6200RPM. I'd have to go get the dynp sheets to find torque. Darin's did 941 Motor only (565) and 1388 on the Bottle (Nitrous)
More than that, though is Hydrodyanimics. It takes more than gobs of HP to go fast. I know with a 468 makin near 1000 on the bottle, we took the trophy home inthe 9 second Bracket, with Darin's boat and him Driving. We threw another $50,000 at the motor and couldn't get it faster than 8.6 seconds. It went to B1 Racing in Aneheim for bottom work and this year, we hope for the 8 second Trophy, or the quick 6.
My advice is to buy a mildly beat runner. Start slow, you will get bit hard soon enough for more speed. Find out what haunts you. Go for a few rides in other boats. Talk, yak it up, look into other forums. I belong to SkagenBoats.com and you will find me there. My name is the Habitual Offender and our camp is WFR (WhiteFlagRacing)
Lets have some fun. Cheers- Matt
^^^That, right there, is why I'm having so much fun in this new section.^^^
So much good info. I think your advice about a runner in need of some love is sound. It seems that 455s, 460s and 454(variants) are the most common. Any preference as far as durability? I know your stuff is Chevy and that's really what I'm most familiar with too. I won't be racing though. Are there common problem areas to be on the lookout for?
So much good info. I think your advice about a runner in need of some love is sound. It seems that 455s, 460s and 454(variants) are the most common. Any preference as far as durability? I know your stuff is Chevy and that's really what I'm most familiar with too. I won't be racing though. Are there common problem areas to be on the lookout for?
im still following along with much interest, but for now driven seems to be asking all the questions i would, so im just gonna keep my mouth shut and read 
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