Have high powered factory cars ruined hotrodding???

[UNGN]

We have a 1/2 mile and 1 mile shootout every year and the Hellcat Charger is the king of the bone stock 1/2 mile @ 144 mph. Maybe the C6 ZR1 could match it, but that is about it for stock cars. The C7 Z06 was a few mph slower as was the Hellcat Challenger. My stock '13 5.0 could only muster 131 (though that was faster than the 3 Boss 302's and all of the stock N/A Camaros/Challengers)

Nothing else stock could beat the Stock Hellcat Charger, but my buddies '89 TA with a budget twin turbo setup went 177mph in the 1/2 mile and fear was the only thing keeping him from going faster... so Hot rodding still wins.

My dad's hot rod (a '04 Chrysler Crossfire with an AMG 5.5 compressor V8 out of a wrecked S-class) ran 141 in the 1/2 mile - 3 mph slower than the Hellcat Charger, but would be neck and neck with a Hellcat Challenger or C7Z06 so hot rods still have their place.

 

[Mikej89]

Back around 2007, the 266HP Camry's could run high 13's with the typical "Free mods" and good air that got '80's cars into the low 14's. 100% Stock off the showroom floor they ran 14.3. My 89 5.0 ran 14.8's stock and 14.1's with "free mods", so the camry is starting almost 1/2 second quicker.

Wow, I didn't know they were that fast as far back as '07. What are "free mods", like bolt-ons?

It was especially demoralizing to guys that had traded in their GN for a '93 Camaro (because it had 275 HP), then something faster, then something faster, then something faster and still get beat by a stock appearing T-type.

Aren't even stock T-types and GNs faster than a '93 Z/28? What did those cars actually make stock, they were underrated at 245hp right?

I bought a Jaguar XK8 coupe last year to do an LS1/T56 swap, but it runs and drives so good with the stock motor I keep putting the conversion off. Maybe next fall. These are excellent driving/handing cars that need a "car guy" owner, because paying someone to fix stuff would bankrupt a rich guy, They are easy to work on and designed to be repaired and many parts are in the junkyard on other Jag models for cheap (I had to replace the alternator: $35 off of an XJ8)

That is a gorgeous XK8! Great color! How did you manage that for only $4500, it looks brand new? Decent ones seem to go for at least 10 when I've checked. A week ago we hit a raccoon in my parent's 2004 X-type. Found out today it's been totaled 🙁. Over 3 grand of damage underneath! Really a shame, super nice X-type, just turned over 100,000 and fun to drive.

 

[Clone TIE Pilot]

In a way, yes. The factory can now out r&D at faster rate than either the aftermarket and especially the shadetree hotrodder. No matter how much money you dump into a old car to update it, the factory will fly past you by lightyears in a blink of an eye. In fact, old machines can only be updated so much before you hit its limitations. Then there are also prohibitive costs when everything in a machine needs to updated, it just becomes cheaper to buy a new machine with all the upgrades already in it. It makes more money sense to dump 65k into a new car where everything is new and pristine rather than dump 50k into updating a old car as close as possible to new car standards. After dumping 50k, it would still lack abs brakes, traction control, airbags, outdated suspension setup, may have unforseen rust and fatigue issues that will snowball down the rabbit hole, lack of modern creature comforts, weak and heavy mild steel construction, requiring major reinforcing to withstand the extra power the body and frame were never designed to handle, ever increasing list of discontinued replacement parts, poorer aerodynamics, etc. Not to mention the OEM is keeping more and more information on how to repair new cars to themselves and away from the general public. The rule of diminishing return still holds true which is why modern hotrodding requires a much fatter wallet than in the past. They pushed the standard bar up, and the prices up past it. The only limit is your income and amount of debt you are willing to take on. Its not so much new cars have ruined hotrodding, they just made it a hell of more expensive and pushed the hobby out of reach for more people.

Its why I prefer tractors, being old and outdated isn't much of a concern for them, no traffic to keep up with. Plus replacement parts are much more available than for old cars.

Moreover, I believe what really ruins hotrodding is not so much the new fast cars, but some of their owners. The kind of guys who look down at old car owners with disdain, and tell them to do this or that they simply don't have money for or have more important things to invest that money in. If they want to run your G body down, let them, and let them open their wallets, drain their savings, and take out loans to do so. Some of these guys buy brand new high end crate engines while their kids wear rags and eat nothing but private label canned pasta Os from the dollar store. Also the car magazine writers who say everything you have sucks, and offer a large grocery list of things from their paid advertisers to make your awful uncool car, and you cool again, deserve some blame too. The ever increasing wage gap is not helping the matter.

 

[UNGN]

Wow, I didn't know they were that fast as far back as '07. What are "free mods", like bolt-ons?

Back in the '80's/'90's cheap/free mods were all the rage in car magazines. It was stuff like taking out the airfilter, running a short belt to bypass the power steering, going to the tire store and buying a set of used bald tires for $10, getting a temp sensor from the junkyard and plugging it it into the harness in free air so it was reading a cooler temp than actual to trick the computer into giving more fuel, advancing the timing, unbolting the exhaust behind the cat and on and on. The theory was lots of little things add up.

Aren't even stock T-types and GNs faster than a '93 Z/28? What did those cars actually make stock, they were underrated at 245hp right?

Stock T-types ran about 14.2, the '93 Z's were supposed to run high 13's but never really did. In the Mid '90's I picked up my T-type for $5000 because there was massive rush to 4th gen F-bodies.

With stock injectors, stock turbo and stock intercooler, my full weight T-type ran 12.20's @111 on drag radials driving 100 miles each way to the track on street tire pressures. In the 1/8th it did 7.7's.. basically with "cheap/free mods" and drag radials. With more injector and a larger turbo it ran 7.30's in the 1/8 / 11.5's in the 1/4 still looking stock.

The Turbo Regals had vast untapped potential as long as you could be happy with mid 11's, because the go consistently faster than mid 11's you have to start spending money.

That is a gorgeous XK8! Great color! How did you manage that for only $4500, it looks brand new? Decent ones seem to go for at least 10 when I've checked. A week ago we hit a raccoon in my parent's 2004 X-type. Found out today it's been totaled 🙁. Over 3 grand of damage underneath! Really a shame, super nice X-type, just turned over 100,000 and fun to drive.

It needed wheel bearing, balljoints, shocks and brakes. The guy who owned it likely got a quote on this for $4 - 5K and put it on craigslist. I did it all the work myself and added larger 13" brakes lowing springs and for about $1,500 total. I would love to find other coupes in similar condition.

 

[MrSony]

I don't know if anyone else has said it, but history always comes full circle, whether it take a few decades or 1000s of years. The same could be said about the muscle cars in the 1960s. Did those kill of the hotrods the soldiers started building after WWI and WWII once they got home? No, if anything it fueled the fire, so to speak.

 

[Mikej89]

But that doesn't take into account at all driving and ownership experience. The feel of drive my Monte is nothing like driving the Equinox. No one is going to stop and have a 5 minute conversation with me at a gas station about my wifes Equinox. Just because some Toyota, Subaru or Demon is faster, doesn't erase from the world the awesomeness you feel driving a '75 Caprice drop top on a sunny day. At least you can't think that way. Cars are worth more than 0-60 times. It doesn't always have to be a dick comparing contest.

Absolutely. Really like your Monte btw... Love the idea of putting a healthy 350 into a G-body driver like yours. Just give it the power they never had back then but keep the street manners. What rear end/gears does it have?

 

[oldmansmonte]

Absolutely. Really like your Monte btw... Love the idea of putting a healthy 350 into a G-body driver like yours. Just give it the power they never had back then but keep the street manners. What rear end/gears does it have?

Thank you. The car was a stock 4.3 TBI car, with 2.41 rear gears(no posi of course). I put a crate GM 350 and retained the TBI with a few mods. The idea was to build kind of what they never did. Recently I put 3:73's with posi and it's been a bit of a disaster as cataloged here https://gbodyforum.com/threads/had-my-rear-end-rebuilt-now-its-exposed-transmission-problems.63268/

But it's ok I'm working through it. Long story short my super economy transmission doesn't want to play ball with the 3:73's.

 

[Mikej89]

Stock T-types ran about 14.2, the '93 Z's were supposed to run high 13's but never really did. In the Mid '90's I picked up my T-type for $5000 because there was massive rush to 4th gen F-bodies.

With stock injectors, stock turbo and stock intercooler, my full weight T-type ran 12.20's @111 on drag radials driving 100 miles each way to the track on street tire pressures. In the 1/8th it did 7.7's.. basically with "cheap/free mods" and drag radials. With more injector and a larger turbo it ran 7.30's in the 1/8 / 11.5's in the 1/4 still looking stock.

The Turbo Regals had vast untapped potential as long as you could be happy with mid 11's, because the go consistently faster than mid 11's you have to start spending money.

Wow, that's amazingly quick for an 80's street car. What mods were done to it to go 12.20?

In the 80s did you get to see big block muscle cars like 454 Chevelles battling it out with the new GNs? I think that would have been pretty awesome to witness.

 

[Mikej89]

Thank you. The car was a stock 4.3 TBI car, with 2.41 rear gears(no posi of course). I put a crate GM 350 and retained the TBI with a few mods. The idea was to build kind of what they never did. Recently I put 3:73's with posi and it's been a bit of a disaster as cataloged here https://gbodyforum.com/threads/had-my-rear-end-rebuilt-now-its-exposed-transmission-problems.63268/

But it's ok I'm working through it. Long story short my super economy transmission doesn't want to play ball with the 3:73's.

Sorry to hear that. Does that crate motor have a bigger than stock cam? What made you go as low as 3.73's?

 

[Clone TIE Pilot]

With those Buick turbo v6s, once you start hotrodding them you have to buy a scanmaster and keep one eye on it at all times the engine is running. One hiccup, and the v6 can blow a headgasket, fail to build boost because of a blown exhaust gasket, or puke its internals out. Big problem is the Buick v6 was designed to be a granny motor, which is why it has a few design issues such as not having enough head bolts to prevent the heads from lifting from boost and blowing HGs. The weak thrust bearing that are easy to wipe out, and too weak to use with a manual trans. Poor flowing heads, weak oiling system, oil pump that chews its soft aluminum housing out, etc. Then there are the body issues. GM in their great wisdom, put the most powerful stock g body engine into the weakest body configuration. All but the GNX have missing body bushings, frame bracing, and body bracing that the other lower powered g bodies got. Its why some of the hopped up GN guys have blown out rear windshields from body twist, had driveshafts go though the floorpans, doors no longer shuting right from body warp, and even twisting the rear lca mounts clean off the frame. The instructions for the Tinman brace states the mounting holes are not predrilled as most Turbo Buick bodies are already badly distorted from the engine, especially if the car was ever track ran. Turbo Buick boards are filled with such horror stories. The GN guys say a stock g body is not designed to withstand more than 400 hp before you start damaging the frame and body.