Leaning on you guys

[64nailhead]

depending on the carb, you need the correct ‘adapter’ lever on the carb to achieve the correct geometry for the TV cable for your 200-4R.

What you mechanic is doing has been done 100,000 times. The parts are readily available and not hard to install. But if you want your 200 to live, then it must be done.

 

[john87442]

Ok thanks for that, my transmission guy was telling me that the tv cable needs to be adjusted correctly otherwise it will burn up. Not exactly sure what he was talking about but I thought I would cross that bridge when I came to it.

 

[69hurstolds]

He's correct. A mis-adjusted TV cable will ruin your transmission and your wallet.

Quickest way to "fix" that is if you use a non-CCC quadrajet on the 350, you could put an Olds CCC quadrajet primary throttle shaft from the 009 original carb in the base, along with the stock throttle cable and bracket, and instantly get back your TV cable alignment. You don't have to, but that's the easiest way, IMO. If you use a Holley or Demon or whatever, you're on your own. I won't even talk about the Edelbrock AVS or whatever those things are. I hate them and will never use one.

Take a dremel tool or similar with a cone grinding bit and carefully grind down the staked threads on the throttle shaft, then use a torx bit to remove the screws on the throttle blades. It could also be a good time to rebush the primary throttle bore on the baseplate if needed as well. Put the CCC shaft in the non-CCC base and reinstall with some throttle blade screws and loctite on the threads. Near impossible to restake the threads. It CAN be done, but you risk bending the shaft. Loctite is easier. I used red loctite because I don't ever want one of those screws to come out.

 

[john87442]

Thanks for that information I appreciate it.

 

[KgsTurboRegal]

I’ve got a 700R4 in my ‘84 Grand Prix, and I just hooked up a switch for the lock-up, cost me a grand total of $3.29 for the switch and some wire. It works just fine, and a hell of a lot cheaper than the “kit”

 

[Clone TIE Pilot]

You can try on an Olds. Probably won't do you much good. If headers are the only thing you change, then maybe. But not with a big cam too. O2 sensor will work, but it'll max out on the M/C solenoid and you won't have enough. Not to mention the vacuum signal that will muck things up.

My prediction- this car will be off the ECM. You can still tune the engine without it. You probably would still want an O2 bung on the exhaust so you can hook up a wideband O2 meter to help you get close for your new carb tuning. But the M/C solenoid? Nah. Don't see that in this particular car's future. Hope I'm proved wrong.

Olds CCC systems have been made to work on 455s, but generally require either a mild cam or custom PROM chip. Olds BINs do not seem to be as commonly available as Chevy BINs.

Those aftermarket TV cable brackets do not have as good of geometry as stock. Aftermart lockup kits don't lockup as well as the stock computer either. This swap may have been performed 100,000s of times but how many of those times was it done correctly? A Joe Blow mechanic is no factory engineer, and it takes plenty of research to do engine swaps well. Asking questions on forums is a great aid but its no replacement for studying factory repair manuals. Plus manuals are more free of bias, peer pressures, wives tales, and group think.

As for swapping throttle shafts, CCC Qjets use a much shorter counter bore on the driver side for greater bearing surface than older non CCC Qjets which might cause fitment issues. A rebushing may be required just to get the parts to fit.

OP, keep in mind that it is illegal for any auto repair business to perform smog deletes and tampering. The EPA can and does heavily fine such businesses as well as pull their business licences through the DOJ if caught. So any business willing to do any illegal work are either really ignorant or shady as F, neither of which are good for you.

 

[john87442]

He's correct. A mis-adjusted TV cable will ruin your transmission and your wallet.

Quickest way to "fix" that is if you use a non-CCC quadrajet on the 350, you could put an Olds CCC quadrajet primary throttle shaft from the 009 original carb in the base, along with the stock throttle cable and bracket, and instantly get back your TV cable alignment. You don't have to, but that's the easiest way, IMO. If you use a Holley or Demon or whatever, you're on your own. I won't even talk about the Edelbrock AVS or whatever those things are. I hate them and will never use one.

Take a dremel tool or similar with a cone grinding bit and carefully grind down the staked threads on the throttle shaft, then use a torx bit to remove the screws on the throttle blades. It could also be a good time to rebush the primary throttle bore on the baseplate if needed as well. Put the CCC shaft in the non-CCC base and reinstall with some throttle blade screws and loctite on the threads. Near impossible to restake the threads. It CAN be done, but you risk bending the shaft. Loctite is easier. I used red loctite because I don't ever want one of those screws to come out.

Ok so again with my ignorance ccc or computer command control is actually a well engineered piece from GM, and does a lot. While the primary’s are mainly concentrated on with the fuel/ air ratios and the balance between info from o2 sensor and temperature by the time your foot is in it the secondary’s open it doesn’t care as much so to speak at least as I understand it, the quadrajet has had a bad rap from some as not being considered as valuable however from my meager understanding of it I would think there lack of ability is to blame. There is a lot of good information on them earlier models and later. I honestly would like to keep it on however it seems with the combination of changes I’m doing it wouldn’t make sense to struggle with what that piece of equipment needs to function as designed, as 69 hurst olds previously pointed out. Definitely going to keep researching this for all the needed parameters to consider.

 

[john87442]

Olds CCC systems have been made to work on 455s, but generally require either a mild cam or custom PROM chip. Olds BINs do not seem to be as commonly available as Chevy BINs.

Those aftermarket TV cable brackets do not have as good of geometry as stock. Aftermart lockup kits don't lockup as well as the stock computer either. This swap may have been performed 100,000s of times but how many of those times was it done correctly? A Joe Blow mechanic is no factory engineer, and it takes plenty of research to do engine swaps well. Asking questions on forums is a great aid but its no replacement for studying factory repair manuals. Plus manuals are more free of bias, peer pressures, wives tales, and group think.

As for swapping throttle shafts, CCC Qjets use a much shorter counter bore on the driver side for greater bearing surface than older non CCC Qjets which might cause fitment issues. A rebushing may be required just to get the parts to fit.

OP, keep in mind that it is illegal for any auto repair business to perform smog deletes and tampering. The EPA can and does heavily fine such businesses as well as pull their business licences through the DOJ if caught. So any business willing to do any illegal work are either really ignorant or shady as F, neither of which are good for you.

I like the points you make and I agree I have already seen the benefits of diving into the shop manual to research this but in addition to that this forum has extensive discussion and untold years of knowledge and side points such as yours that are truly valuable and appreciated. Just trying to soak it all in.

 

[78Delta88]

Lots of good information here that I will second.

On builds such as this I always ask the question..., what is the actual desire or end state of the build. If you are going to make a nice streetable restoration and keep the C3 (CCC) system, then you have to work within those parameters. If you want to go beyond that, you need to build with in those parameters.

Q Jet is a very good carb, robust and reliable if setup correctly. So is the Holley and also the Carter AFB (now sold under the Edelbrock name).
Yet each are different in how they go about metering the fuel and air.

From what I hear with your build and only my suggestion I would do the following...

Pre 1981HEI with vacuum and weights. Holley Q-Jet replacement with 50 cc pumpers on each end and 1 inch spacer plate. Low rise filter that will allow 3 inch filter and still clear hood. Care of the initial setup of the filter stud or you end up jamming it into the hood and now you have body and paint to fix. (Been there done that, Got the t-shirt).

10:1 static CR initial timing at 0 to 4 BTDC. Cam LSA about 106 to 110, total timing still going to be about 32 to 36 maybe a little more depending on lift and duration. You need to do the calculation for dynamic compression and keep around 7.5 DCR to use 87 pump gas without major worries.

Headers 1 3/4 instead of 1 5/8. Watch the header selection Engine Masters episode from Frieburger (sic) available on YouTube.

The only Olds 350 that used C3 system was the Tornado/Eldorado, but I think most were TBI, not sure. I had a friend that had a 84 Eldorado, Olds 350 with a Carb I think..., been too long ago. The next closest was the Suburban Fleet police issue Chevy 350 with CCC Q Jet.

I'm a firm believer in measures, so an air/fuel gauge is important. If you don't want to or maybe not good at welding there are actually clamp on kits. About 40 USD, and if me, I would do both headers as you can check and see both banks in sync and not one richer or leaner than the other.

On setup you drive it and get you vac reading at WOT, you should be about .75 or less. From there you know if you are under or over on the carb CFM. You have to do the calculations on this. But likewise, if it's driving ok and your happy with the performance don't have to change it.

On the 2004R there is a pressure port when in OD, and this is where you want to mount the switch. Sounds like much but it's actually and easy process. I'll try to find you some pics on this.

On the 2004R the TV cable has to be setup correctly. You want 100% TV by 90% WOT, there are geometry correction kits for this,but as others have said, don't just go by the kit. You might have to customize it a bit. Each one I have done this was the case. This is true for 700R4 as well.

If your cam is staying closer to stock then 2400 to 2800 stall. If your cam is more open than that getting close to 220 duration or more then 2800 to 3200. You also at that point need to decide if you want to upgrade the input shaft. The original 2004r came with what was known as the small diameter 27 spline input, but can be changed.

The 2004 will be ok for awhile if you are not jumping on it to much, but won't last long. 2004R upgrades is good quality performance lock up converter. Up grade to 13 vane pump and pump boost valves, stator support and billet input shaft. Change front piston to the machined unit and add extra clutch plate to the OD. Then use the upgraded forward drum with billet shaft tigged in place, hardened shell and hardened output shaft. Several of the bushing can be changed to bearings. Another weak point is the band and it can be upgraded to a wider band and the accompanying servo to the billet unit.

Then from there the rear end. 3.08 is decent highway gear, but 3.42, 3.55, 3.73 are better around town gears. Gears just end up being more in tune with how you drive it.

Sounds like a lot but you don't have to do all at once.