Ls motor question

[motorheadmike]

I baffled two people this week when I pulled out my HPTuners and started slinging data. One was the shop that built the trans in my TBSS, and the other was the dude I bought my 4.8L off of (he said it looked like something from one of those "TV shows"...).

So yeah, empower yourself and learn how to tune.

 

[64nailhead]

I baffled two people this week when I pulled out my HPTuners and started slinging data. One was the shop that built the trans in my TBSS, and the other was the dude I bought my 4.8L off of (he said it looked like something from one of those "TV shows"...).

So yeah, empower yourself and learn how to tune.

WHat was the cost of HPTuners Canadien?

 

[motorheadmike]

WHat was the cost of HPTuners Canadien?

Dunno... about $500 7 years ago?

 

[Turbolq4]

500 wheel isn't easy or cheap. If you are running a 4l80e it's going to take alot more flywheel horsepower than you think. I have a turbocharged 5.3/4l80e with a Ford 8.8 rear. From the outside looking in the internet would have everyone believe that 1000whp turbo ls cars are everywhere, they most assuredly are not. I used the "Denmah" kit from VS Racing. 69mm GT45 Deka 80lb injectors, boost referenced fuel pressure regulator, GN tank and sending unit, 400lph Walbro, -6an braided line and fittings, HPtuners, stock ecm, transgo2 kit for the 80e, pac1218 valve springs, mandrel bends from Columbia River for the hot side, 4"down pipe. Standalone harness repinned for the 80e. The list goes on and on. Over a grand in tuning just to make it run right. Very conservative tune (10* timing) on a Mustang Dyno it made 462whp with the stock cam. Dyno said it made 614 crankshaft. The big surprise is the 540wheel torque. This is a seriously stout car but I have over 10k in parts in this build and the car was free. I have since put a big cam (.585 lift) and added timing but the lame 91octane fuel around here cost me a piston just recently. I'm out of turbo and fuel pump at this power level (700 flywheel conservative estimate) it can absolutely be done but be aware the first time the word turbo enters into your build you can multiply the figured cost by 3 and you are getting close.

 

[64nailhead]

500 wheel isn't easy or cheap. If you are running a 4l80e it's going to take alot more flywheel horsepower than you think. I have a turbocharged 5.3/4l80e with a Ford 8.8 rear. From the outside looking in the internet would have everyone believe that 1000whp turbo ls cars are everywhere, they most assuredly are not. I used the "Denmah" kit from VS Racing. 69mm GT45 Deka 80lb injectors, boost referenced fuel pressure regulator, GN tank and sending unit, 400lph Walbro, -6an braided line and fittings, HPtuners, stock ecm, transgo2 kit for the 80e, pac1218 valve springs, mandrel bends from Columbia River for the hot side, 4"down pipe. Standalone harness repinned for the 80e. The list goes on and on. Over a grand in tuning just to make it run right. Very conservative tune (10* timing) on a Mustang Dyno it made 462whp with the stock cam. Dyno said it made 614 crankshaft. The big surprise is the 540wheel torque. This is a seriously stout car but I have over 10k in parts in this build and the car was free. I have since put a big cam (.585 lift) and added timing but the lame 91octane fuel around here cost me a piston just recently. I'm out of turbo and fuel pump at this power level (700 flywheel conservative estimate) it can absolutely be done but be aware the first time the word turbo enters into your build you can multiply the figured cost by 3 and you are getting close.

There is the amount of money that you tell your wife and the real price. - lol. Sound like you're talking about the real price 🙂🙂 This is the reason for going away from HP Tuners and tuning yourself to save the tuning fees for an afternoon on the dyno.

All kidding aside, I'm with you Turbolq4. sh*t adds up in a hurry, but 500whp turbo'd junk yard LS can done for well under $5k if you have some mechanical skills. The issue comes into the rest of the chassis and drivetrain. We aren't running a junkyard LS, so I'll hit you (and whomever) with our real world numbers - motor (aftermarket block) $5500 in parts for the short block with another $600 in heads; intake manifolds, exhaust manifolds and piping - $600, fuel system (injectors, pumps, lines, etc.) - $1K; electronics - $1K. So we are $8700ish under the hood. Add another $3K in trans and $750 in torque converter along with approx $1800 in rear and $10K starts looking cheap.

It makes me chuckle and curse Turbolq4 for adding it up - lol. The only solstice is that were are might bit past 500whp. But we are not over a 1000 whp.

'GO' costs - $10/hp is still a safe number if you look at the total build. Years ago that was the number that was needed under the hood. Turbo's made that into a total drive train number IMO. My goal is to be into the 9's with this budget and be able to drive it 75 miles to the track - and back. NA - it ain't happenning.

 

[Northernregal]

I don’t think it’s hard to hit the HP numbers anymore. Making it live for more than a run or two is a different story. Engine Masters from Hot Rod mag are putting down crazy numbers every couple weeks on a different junkyard motor, but on a dyno for a couple runs is a long shot from a reliable motor. My personal goal is 600, using proven combos that were used in production cars I don’t think it’s unreasonable. We shall see how long the drivetrain lasts. Haha

 

[Turbolq4]

HPtuners was 500 bucks and it's a pretty steep learning curve but not impossible. The big mechanical parts are pretty cheap. 1200 for the engine complete with all accessories, wiring, ecm. 900 for the trans, 350 for the drive shaft, around 500 in the rear with actually buying it and the new brake parts, double adjustable uppers and spherical joints. The upside to all of this is that it's really cheap to fix when it does break. It gets old swapping parts though.

 

[motorheadmike]

I don't about you guys but I am getting complete good drop outs for $250-500 Canadian. 4.8L, 5.3L, and 6.0Ls all Gen IIIs. Unfortunately that is the only cost effective thing about LS-swaps.

The thing is everything is a challenge and has its own learning curve. Making 500-600hp reliably is achievable with some good parts and prior planning. Doing it consistently on pump gas is a game of Russian roulette; adding a supplemental octane booster of alcohol or propane increases the tuning window significantly.

Lambda - learn it and love it. If you ask me what AFR I am running, I'll ask if you enjoy the irritation of shoving a red hot curling iron up your *ss. Different strokes for different folks - and every engine responds differently to Equivalence Ratios. There is no one right answer.

I will also call BS on anyone who says running Speed Density is necessary on large cammed or blown applications. Those tuners are just stupid or lazy. SD-only has its place, but not in basic street builds where a MAF can still be leveraged.

HP Tuners works fine, and there are plenty of OSs to suit the wide variety of applications.

 

[64nailhead]

I don’t think it’s hard to hit the HP numbers anymore. Making it live for more than a run or two is a different story. Engine Masters from Hot Rod mag are putting down crazy numbers every couple weeks on a different junkyard motor, but on a dyno for a couple runs is a long shot from a reliable motor. My personal goal is 600, using proven combos that were used in production cars I don’t think it’s unreasonable. We shall see how long the drivetrain lasts. Haha

Making it live is alot easier than you think - it's in the tune. If you're content with 600HP, then it's really a snap. The issue with boost is that 'boost is addictive'. I'm sure you've heard it a bajillion times, but it's the truth. There is a mile of difference between 600HP on a safe tune and an unsafe tune. We run on the street, daily driving, a tune that has 4 degrees pulled from it and is at 10.8-11.1:1 when over 3 psi. That tune leave 80-100hp on the table at 10 psi, but the car made it over 5000 miles this summer without a failure. You need to keep your street tune 'away from the cliff's edge'.

Regarding Engine Masters, don't subscribe or succumb to that rubbish. The most recent episode ended it for me (Ford AFR head comparison.) I hate to say it, TV is TV and those guys are all about TV. With that said, I can't blame them, but they need some real world material. Who in their right mind compares heads with an intake that won't keep up with head flow and claims that it's the head's size that is the issue?

My grandaddy told me many times - 'believe half of what you see and none of what you hear' - it applies to Engine Masters.

p.s - I wish you were local.

====
motorheadmike - we were posting at the same time. You keep your AFR readings secret? I'll keep some things secret (cam design, piston design, rotating weight, but AFR readings save motors - they are no secret.
.

 

[motorheadmike]

No, my point is that AFR is an inaccurate form of measure - especially when you start adding in other fuel types. Lambda is the only true measure of oxygen to fuel (and other crap).

Working on a gas scale is silly in my opinion, in particular with flex fuel applications where the ethanol content varies.