LS VS Oldschool

[CWPottenger]

If you read a little, use common sense and have a bit of know how, they ain't tht expense, are very simple and you will NEVER match the power and MPG, drivability and dependability in carbbed engine for the same money if you do it correctly. You may get one but not all. My one LSx swap took a weekend, was an LS1 into a '75 Formula, took a weekend, cost $1800 total, the exhaust is a matter of making a Pair of down pipes, just how damn hard is that?
If all you want is quarter mile times and nothing else, you might be able to match those for the money but you won't cone close on the others. Whatever ones priority is I guess.

That $1800 is a used engine and harness.. Using a that philosophy I could drop a used SBC in for less every day of the week. This is a no win comparo....

Here is a base line crate comparo... Same company, similar power:

350 cu in 330hp 380Torque $2,876.00 350 HO Base—with Iron Vortec Heads
323 cu in 332HP 352Torque $3,380.00 LS Series 5.3

That is just the crate engine no ignition no fuel system

Your engine looks clean and you did a nice job of packaging... (except the vette covers which I personally find stupid on anything but a vette, but again just my opinion).

As for carbs being unable to even stack up on any, but one item at a time I would disagree.
I have a 383 SBC 700R4 IRS rear end and I get 21mpg on the highway, mid 400hp/tq (based on parts, have not been able to dyno yet) starts everyday I want and drives just fine.

 

[CWPottenger]

. Most likely you would have to install DBW which I hate the very idea of.

I'm with you on that one. Any vehicle I was using as a performance vehicle I would never use or trust DBW.

 

[Clone TIE Pilot]

I don't really care about wiring, computers, or how a motor looks. Problem is there cost vs return ratio which still isn't that good. The fact is when you retrofit an engine into a car that is not designed at all for it is going to cost alot since everything needs to be changed out. You have to turn a pre OBD1 car into a modern OBD2 car. You have to swap in a stock LS harness with all the sensors and OBD2 emission systems for a legal swap. Run EFI fuel lines, install an in tank fuel pump. Buy a host of mounting adaptors and the correct oil pan. Most likely you would have to install DBW which I hate the very idea of. For the best results you should install a modern trans behind the LS motor which requires a new crossmember, cooler lines, shifter links, etc. Then comes custom exhaust that needs how many cats the LS motors come stock with (modern cars usually have more than one cat). Yes there are shortcuts but some are either illegal or cripple what the LS can do. In the end you could still install an SBC that makes the same power, use the factory CCC to get near the same MPGs and drivability, reuse most of the parts that came in the car, and be way under the cost of an LS swap.

My 3 lt1 swaps were all legal in Maryland, one had in tank pump and it came that way. The harness took 4 hours to sort on the '67, all had 4l60e's. The fuel lines were as simple as using the return line which dumps directly into the canister where the pickup is effectively creating a sump with zero cost, and using a vented cap which is legal here on a car more than 20 years old. the programming cost $150. It was a half second quicker than a '67 SS 427. Total cost on the '67 including drivetrain was $2200 but that was 2001. Whole project took from Sunday to Saturday working nights 3-4 hours. If you read a little, use common sense and have a bit of know how, they ain't tht expense, are very simple and you will NEVER match the power and MPG, drivability and dependability in carbbed engine for the same money if you do it correctly. You may get one but not all. My one LSx swap took a weekend, was an LS1 into a '75 Formula, took a weekend, cost $1800 total, the exhaust is a matter of making a Pair of down pipes, just how damn hard is that?
If all you want is quarter mile times and nothing else, you might be able to match those for the money but you won't cone close on the others. Whatever ones priority is I guess.

I got my 1986 SBC with a THM2004R, computer, belt driven accessories, CCC harness, trans crossmember, and cat converter with hanger for $250. Starts right up and drives like a new car, gets 21 MPGs, and pumps out 240 HP and this is a 305 everyone likes to rag on. It's drivability is the same as my 2001 Ranger and the 305 has never failed on me.

An open vent cap is no longer legal for your 67. It may be okay under your state's laws but not under federal law since you have disabled the LS's closed vent EVAP system, part of the low emission system you are supposed to install. Your 1967 car now must meet the emission levels of whatever year car you got the new motor from. To make your swap legal you need to install a OBD2 EVAP system into your fuel system. Besides open venting is outdated, it allows moisture and gunk to build up in your gas tank and promotes phase separation. Closed venting is far superior, improves MPGs, emissions, and keeps your fuel system cleaner so your engine is more dependable. The Feds may force your state to crack down on your shortcut at any time.

 

[Clone TIE Pilot]

If you read a little, use common sense and have a bit of know how, they ain't tht expense, are very simple and you will NEVER match the power and MPG, drivability and dependability in carbbed engine for the same money if you do it correctly. You may get one but not all. My one LSx swap took a weekend, was an LS1 into a '75 Formula, took a weekend, cost $1800 total, the exhaust is a matter of making a Pair of down pipes, just how damn hard is that?
If all you want is quarter mile times and nothing else, you might be able to match those for the money but you won't cone close on the others. Whatever ones priority is I guess.

That $1800 is a used engine and harness.. Using a that philosophy I could drop a used SBC in for less every day of the week. This is a no win comparo....

Here is a base line crate comparo... Same company, similar power:

350 cu in 330hp 380Torque $2,876.00 350 HO Base—with Iron Vortec Heads
323 cu in 332HP 352Torque $3,380.00 LS Series 5.3

That is just the crate engine no ignition no fuel system

Your engine looks clean and you did a nice job of packaging... (except the vette covers which I personally find stupid on anything but a vette, but again just my opinion).

As for carbs being unable to even stack up on any, but one item at a time I would disagree.
I have a 383 SBC 700R4 IRS rear end and I get 21mpg on the highway, mid 400hp/tq (based on parts, have not been able to dyno yet) starts everyday I want and drives just fine.

If your car came with an SBC, you can reuse most of the parts. You can even reuse a V6 TBI system on an V8 SBC. LS you will need to buy a donor car and swap everything out for a legal swap.

I would not trust DBW in anything. Not having complete control over your car = sucks.

The computer tells you what is the optimum throttle position and acts on its own accord instead of doing what you want it to do. I don't mind computers as long as it isn't between my foot and the throttle plate.

 

[Randy_W]

I don't really care about wiring, computers, or how a motor looks. Problem is there cost vs return ratio which still isn't that good. The fact is when you retrofit an engine into a car that is not designed at all for it is going to cost alot since everything needs to be changed out. You have to turn a pre OBD1 car into a modern OBD2 car. You have to swap in a stock LS harness with all the sensors and OBD2 emission systems for a legal swap. Run EFI fuel lines, install an in tank fuel pump. Buy a host of mounting adaptors and the correct oil pan. Most likely you would have to install DBW which I hate the very idea of. For the best results you should install a modern trans behind the LS motor which requires a new crossmember, cooler lines, shifter links, etc. Then comes custom exhaust that needs how many cats the LS motors come stock with (modern cars usually have more than one cat). Yes there are shortcuts but some are either illegal or cripple what the LS can do. In the end you could still install an SBC that makes the same power, use the factory CCC to get near the same MPGs and drivability, reuse most of the parts that came in the car, and be way under the cost of an LS swap.

My 3 lt1 swaps were all legal in Maryland, one had in tank pump and it came that way. The harness took 4 hours to sort on the '67, all had 4l60e's. The fuel lines were as simple as using the return line which dumps directly into the canister where the pickup is effectively creating a sump with zero cost, and using a vented cap which is legal here on a car more than 20 years old. the programming cost $150. It was a half second quicker than a '67 SS 427. Total cost on the '67 including drivetrain was $2200 but that was 2001. Whole project took from Sunday to Saturday working nights 3-4 hours. If you read a little, use common sense and have a bit of know how, they ain't tht expense, are very simple and you will NEVER match the power and MPG, drivability and dependability in carbbed engine for the same money if you do it correctly. You may get one but not all. My one LSx swap took a weekend, was an LS1 into a '75 Formula, took a weekend, cost $1800 total, the exhaust is a matter of making a Pair of down pipes, just how damn hard is that?
If all you want is quarter mile times and nothing else, you might be able to match those for the money but you won't cone close on the others. Whatever ones priority is I guess.

I got my 1986 SBC with a THM2004R, computer, belt driven accessories, CCC harness, trans crossmember, and cat converter with hanger for $250. Starts right up and drives like a new car, gets 21 MPGs, and pumps out 240 HP and this is a 305 everyone likes to rag on. It's drivability is the same as my 2001 Ranger and the 305 has never failed on me.

An open vent cap is no longer legal for your 67. It may be okay under your state's laws but not under federal law since you have disabled the LS's closed vent EVAP system, part of the low emission system you are supposed to install. Your 1967 car now must meet the emission levels of whatever year car you got the new motor from. To make your swap legal you need to install a OBD2 EVAP system into your fuel system. Besides open venting is outdated, it allows moisture and gunk to build up in your gas tank and promotes phase separation. Closed venting is far superior, improves MPGs, emissions, and keeps your fuel system cleaner so your engine is more dependable. The Feds may force your state to crack down on your shortcut at any time.

On the Eastern Shore of Maryland that car is 100% legal today. The feds may try to grab your guns any day now too. I'm not pissing in the air with you, build what you're capable of and what you like, just don't try to make out you know all about something you haven't done. I've been building engines since my first 389 Pontiac in 1969. By the way, the LS1 has 350 h.p. not whatever number you posted and the $1800 was my total investment, I paid $1200 for the engine, and you seem to be confusing the LT1 swap with the LS1 swap.
Rant on dude...

 

[CWPottenger]

I'm not pissing in the air with you, build what you're capable of and what you like, just don't try to make out you know all about something you haven't done. I've been building engines since my first 389 Pontiac in 1969. By the way, the LS1 has 350 h.p. not whatever number you posted and the $1800 was my total investment, I paid $1200 for the engine, and you seem to be confusing the LT1 swap with the LS1 swap.
Rant on dude...

I'm not trying to bash your car, the LS series, or your abilities. Just stating that an LS engine NEW is more expensive period for similar power/torque output and requires additional changes that add to the cost of install, maintenance, etc.

No confusion on engines unless even Summit Racing lies about the HP/Tq #'s

5.3 LS http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-1 ... /chevrolet Still need fuel system @ $6799.97
5.7 SBC http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-1 ... /chevrolet Turn Key @ $6189.97



Didn't doubt your actual investment and sounds like you got a good deal, not everyone looking at an LS swap can get the same deals or have the same level of State regulations to do a swap. Where I am emission requirements are not a concern so I can sidestep a lot of extraneous crap on an engine build.

I think we have gotten off track..... Like I said it looks like you did a very nice and clean install and got a great deal on the combo... Peace

 

[Clone TIE Pilot]

On the Eastern Shore of Maryland that car is 100% legal today. The feds may try to grab your guns any day now too. I'm not pissing in the air with you, build what you're capable of and what you like, just don't try to make out you know all about something you haven't done. I've been building engines since my first 389 Pontiac in 1969. By the way, the LS1 has 350 h.p. not whatever number you posted and the $1800 was my total investment, I paid $1200 for the engine, and you seem to be confusing the LT1 swap with the LS1 swap.
Rant on dude...

State can say whatever they want but they can't overide fed laws. The fact of the matter is your swap still isn't legal since you disabled the EVAP system. That MD says it's okay is meaningless since they don't have the power to overturn what the feds say is okay, so even the state of MD is breaking the law. Living in NJ and having to obey emission laws I researched them quite a bit. Basically CA sets their laws, and the Feds just copy CA and tells the other states to follow it. However the Feds have the states do the enforcing for them and some states slack off on the enforcing and get away with it, for now. So I do know quite well what I am talking about and quit your ad hominem attacks. Attacking me doesn't weaken my argument, only yours. Also your Appeal to Authority argument doesn't hold water either. Guns have nothing to do with this topic and is only a red herring. You have the right to bare arms so the feds will have a hard time revoking that right. However you don't have the right to drive your car on public roads and so the feds can and do mandate how your car must be set up, this is why this argument of yours fails. It's not 1969 anymore, you can't just do anything you want to a car anymore legally if you want to drive it on public roads. EVAP systems came out in the early 70s so you should be quite used to them by now and have no reason not to install it other than cutting corners. I never stated anything about LS1 HP numbers, not sure where you are getting that from? I only stated my 1986 gen 1 HO 305 makes 240 HP. I only paid $250 for the whole drvetrain, total install was about $500 quite a bit less than your $1,800, less than a 1/3rd.

You keep switching the topic between your LT or LS swaps and you are the one who brought LT1s into this thread as another red herring to begin with. So do you have an LT or an LS in your 67 now?

 

[jdietschweiler]

 

[Kansas Bu Wagon]

Yeah this has gone a little off topic.

 

[85GPLef41]

Yeah this has gone a little off topic.

that's why I stopped posting.... :shock: BTW the government can't run itself... much less my ls1 powered GP which was certified smog legal by my state.. If they want to make my swap illegal then oh well! I think they have a whole lot of issues to deal with! not trying to turn this into a political issue but a ls swap that burns cleaner with or without smog equipment compared to a traditional carbed is a win win in my book IMO!!