LS VS Oldschool

[Randy_W]

I wasn't being an *ss and please don't degrade this into name calling Randy, it doesn't help your argument, just stating the cold truth. The style, character, and feel are just pure nostalgia.Though I agree newer cars are ugly but that is only opinion and taste which has no effect on power or performance in any way. As much as I like Gbodies, they were not intended to be sports cars, and are not built that way. Despite being ugly to me, modern cars are built so much better than anything from the 80s. Even the Gbody frame is pretty thin, and when I changed out my body bushings I could wiggle the frame rails all around willy nilly by one hand with ease. Look up a guy named MAP on MCSS.com, he can point out what a soft platform G bodies are, they were built for comfort, not performance. You could spend big bucks on the new more rigid aftermarket Gbody frames that really improves handling and come with LS mounts. But by the time you spend all that money on a aftermarket frame, LS swap, brake and handling upgrade, you could buy a new car that will still out perform the Gbody anyway or any other older car.

LS swaps maybe are easier now than they were due to greater aftermarket support, but they still aren't cheap, simple, or all that easy if you need to do a legal swap. There are some illegal shortcuts one can do with an LS swap to save money and labor but that is not an option for everyone. The tech is completely different and you pretty much are changing the car from pre OBD to more complex OBD2 and really changing the car's classic character. You pretty much have to change everything out for a LS, mounts, crossmember, exhaust, etc. That is besides having to relearn everything to be able to work on and tune a LS motor or rely more on hiring outside professionals to do alot more of the work for you.

My old 1986 carbed SBC starts right up and idles fine in the heat, cold, rain, and I can't tell any difference between it's drive ability vs more modern EFI cars. Other than weaker brakes and handling than modern stuff it's not any harder to drive engine wise. Heck even my old 1946 tractor still starts right up on the first crank in the heat, cold, rain, snow, etc and idles fine and has no problem driving a 5 foot wide mower deck though 6 foot tall weeds. My point was simply that the LS is not as superior to the gen 1 block as you would like to believe it is. LS add ons cost more, not to mention the initial cost of installing it into your older car. The only reason the LS produces so much power in stock form is they all came from the factory with good parts. The stock cam's have .500 lift on them for crying out loud. The fact is if you put good parts in a gen 1 block you can make great hp just like an LS, and saying that you can't is false. Go to your local track and see how many people are running great times and making great power with "old" blocks. This entire arguement that an LS can do so many things that a gen 1 block can't is completely untrue. Same thing goes for the LT1. It's just a gen 1 block with reverse cooling and optispark that was only put there to fit under the cowl. Otherwise they are basically the same as a Gen 1

I'm happy for you.

 

[jetsetw31]

The superiority that the LS holds over the traditional SBC is mainly in it's heads. To build a Gen 1 that can put a whooping on a LS is as simple as going to the Ultimate SBC heads. Believe it or not the castings are not that expensive. But the valve train is unbelievably expensive. New, that is.
Anyone remember the NASCAR heads? I personally know of 2 that are running the streets of my home town. One with just 11:1 comp, a .550 lift cam, and custom headers, made 600 hp at 7 grand. Naturally Aspirated! It lurks between the fenders of a evil Orange '55 Nomad. It has EFI and is driven on the streets. 10 sec ET's if any one ask and i'm sticking to that ET.
The other is a full tilt Busch Grand National engine with 10:1 comp. This one is in a (What Else?) a '69 Camaro. This wild man Spins it as high as 8500 during shifts. No details because i fear for my life even mentioning this car. :shock:
These engine's heads are the real Nascar pieces and can out flow most LS heads. Making the Gen 1 a clear champion.

 

[jdietschweiler]

Jeeze......still hashing this one out?

 

[vanrah]

Greetings Mr J.B. Knight & all; Well Kurt showed up last Wednesday night. I believe he could of influenced you not to come. I've never seen Ben turn anybody away. You can & should be proud of the combo you have put together. I'm retired and home most of the time. If you work week-ends and are free during the week, come on down and have a root beer during the week 752-5925. Your last post "jeeze" was right on. And Mr jetsetw31 you also said it very well "it's mainly in the heads". I'll add that most of an engines performance is in the heads. I got a little hung up on the short block, but was coming around to the heads as the thread lost steam. It was drummed into me that all engines are just "air pumps", after oiling, reciprocating mass & stationary mass are excluded from the equation, it's just heads. As a younger man back in the 60s building my first engine with a lot of guidance from Del Dragney (passed many yrs ago) we had similar conversations about the flat head vs the SBC. And this thread took me back, thank you guys. I'm attaching a couple picture of my Air Flow Research heads. Note the placement of the exhaust valves. I hope that some manufacture does some canted valve heads for the LS series engines, and we thought they breathed well now. Has anyone got pictures of SB2, NASCAR or Can Am SBC heads, you rarely see photos or flow #s of these amazing heads. Sorry to leave you BPO guys out of my conversation, but the market just does not support you guys with many choices of good breathing heads. Bite my tongue, those engines just don't oil well enough to spin high enough to pump all the air that is required to make big HP per cubic inch #s. If anyone is interested Black Hawk Farms Raceway on Oct 12-13 is doing 1/2 days for $65. Meet me their and we can test our theories. Bob JR.

 

[L92 OLDS]

The superiority that the LS holds over the traditional SBC is mainly in it's heads. .

Sorry but I have to disagree. While the LS heads have been improved, the entire LS engine is better than old iron regardless of make. An old SBC or BOP shortblock just doesn't compare. The LS blocks are light, and have near bullet proof reciprocating assemblies with excellent lubrication. They have been engineered to seal well and don't leak at the rear main.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engi ... to_06.html

 

[Clone TIE Pilot]

My 86 SBC doesn't leak at the rear main. Also the SBC has better lubrication. So far GM has only made LS motors with good parts. While SBCs have come with many different grades of parts from the factory over the years.

Extra main bolts can be a sign of a weaker block. The 4 bolt mains for SBCs sarted out being used in the low grade iron versions of SBC blocks. It used to be hotrodders would avoid 4 bolt mains knowing this, they prefered 2 bolt main block since they would be cast of stronger grade iron. It's better to have 4 bolts in mush than two. Of course aluminum is softer and weaker than iron (which is why LS's have "dry" iron cylinder liners), therefore it's better to have 6 bolts in mushier mush. I remember seeing a guy installing a LS into a car, used a pry bar to line it up with the motor mounts like we are used to doing with iron blocks and effortlessly punched a hole though the aluminum crankcase. After seeing that I will stick to iron blocks, if I ever do go to LS I would use the iron block versions.

About the only advantage G bodies and other old cars have over modern cars is weight. Modern unibody cars are overweight pigs due to the increased crash protection (I am not going to say which is better). Even with a heavy iron block motor, a G body still weighs 1000 pounds less than most modern cars of it's size. Therefore using a heavier iron block is not too much of an disadvantage. Though Gbodies still flex like a wet noodle and lack ABS and airbags or traction control.

 

[L92 OLDS]

My 86 SBC doesn't leak at the rear main. Also the SBC has better lubrication. So far GM has only made LS motors with good parts. While SBCs have come with many different grades of parts from the factory over the years.

Yours is an exception. I've owned several SBC, SBO, and buicks and they all leaked at the rear main. The valve covers also leaked. Overall, the old iron engines are a piss poor design with regards to sealing compared to the LS engines.

Extra main bolts can be a sign of a weaker block. The 4 bolt mains for SBCs sarted out being used in the low grade iron versions of SBC blocks. It used to be hotrodders would avoid 4 bolt mains knowing this, they prefered 2 bolt main block since they would be cast of stronger grade iron. It's better to have 4 bolts in mush than two. Of course aluminum is softer and weaker than iron (which is why LS's have "dry" iron cylinder liners), therefore it's better to have 6 bolts in mushier mush.

All good points but try building over 1000 HP with your 86' SBC with a turbo and nitrous and lets see now it fairs. The LS block is way stronger than any SBC ever built.

I remember seeing a guy installing a LS into a car, used a pry bar to line it up with the motor mounts like we are used to doing with iron blocks and effortlessly punched a hole though the aluminum crankcase. After seeing that I will stick to iron blocks, if I ever do go to LS I would use the iron block versions.

There is an idiot born every day.....Why use a pry bar on aluminum? Anyone with half a brain would know that is a bad idea.

About the only advantage G bodies and other old cars have over modern cars is weight. Modern unibody cars are overweight pigs due to the increased crash protection (I am not going to say which is better). Even with a heavy iron block motor, a G body still weighs 1000 pounds less than most modern cars of it's size. Therefore using a heavier iron block is not too much of an disadvantage. Though Gbodies still flex like a wet noodle and lack ABS and airbags or traction control.

Agreed.....

 

[CWPottenger]

About the only advantage G bodies and other old cars have over modern cars is weight. Though Gbodies lack ABS or traction control.

I would say they have style and substance also. There is a reason almost every mfg is in "retro styling" mode. They all had little to no new design innovation and cookie cutter vehicles.

I for one could care less for ABS and Traction control. They are merely aides for the general public with limited driving skills and or experience.

 

[Clone TIE Pilot]

Mine isn't an exception, 86 and up SBCs have one piece rear seals and oil pan gaskets so they don't leak like the older designs. Older 2 piece seals always seep a little which is why GM upgraded to a 1 piece design. In the old days, gaskets got worn out or dry & cracked rather quickly. So they used to say you knew a Chevy was still running if it leaked oil. They all leaked after a few years, but they all kept running. Nowadays seal technology has gotten so good you can seal them up and they STAY sealed for a good long time. One piece oil pan gaskets (crappy at first, but much better quickly after that) were the biggest fix along with similar technology applied to valve cover gaskets. That was 90% of the problems right there. Front and rear main seals are SO much better than they used to be. If you install them correctly (and the surfaces they are riding against are in good shape!) they last half of forever nowadays. If it's not leaking when you first fire it up, chances are it will stay dry for YEARS to come. Even 2 piece rear main seals, which always weep a little due to having a parting line across them, last a LOT longer than they used to. So the better sealing technology LSs use was developed and used on later SBCs first and can be applied to SBCs, BOPs, and LSXs. Nothing that pertains only to LSX. So again the LS just uses technology that has been around for decades. Besides LS motors still get pretty dirty form use. If you reuse beat up, bent, or warped tin with cheap outdated gaskets don't be surprised if you get leaks. Also helps if you maintain your PCV system so you don't get too much crankcase pressure.

Both SBCs and LS motors have been built up to the 2,000 HP mark using different power adders. Nitrous systems are illegal for a street driven car nor would you want a nitrous system in a street car. Unless the turbo kit is EPA/CARB certified, adding a turbo system on a non factory turbo motor is also illegal. So those two power adders are mute for a street car, it has to be N/A. That is besides the stock G body frame is only designed to handle 400 HP yet alone the 7.5 rears most Gs have. 1000 HP would twist a stock G body apart and would be alot of stess for most factory car bodies. There have been GNs that have blown out rear windshields due to the motor twisting the body and twisting off lower LCA mounts at HP levels not much above 400 HP.

I agree it was stupid of the guy to pry on an aluminum part. But is still shows aluminum isn't as robust as iron and need more special care. If something goes wrong a aluminum block would probably would get messed up more than an iron one. It is also why I would be leary of buying a junkyard aluminum engine since those guys are not gentle.

I also think G bodies have better style, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There are many people who consider G bodies as ugly cardboard box cars and prefer the rounded bubble style crap, I disagree with that. It does seem retro styles are becoming more popular.

 

[Randy_W]

Can't beat those flatheads...!