Manual swap

Regular Guy with an Elky

Not-quite-so-new-guy
Aug 15, 2024
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Hi I’m looking for some help. I am thinking about swapping out my auto for a 4speed in my 83 el Camino . I think a 3 groove Saginaw might work with my rear end it’s a 2.41. My confusion at the moment is the type of shifter and mounting kit . There is like a million choices . I want to keep my bench seat. Any thoughts would be appreciated . Thanks!
 
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I am using the 3:50 first gear Saginaw in my Bonnewagon. It has a Pontiac 301, 3:23 rear, and works quite well. The only way to keep your bench seat is to use the factory shifter and mount. It positions the shifter about six inches forward so it clears the dash and bench seat. A 2:41 rear is about the worst rear they used in our cars. It is great for highway mileage with low rpm. But it is very hard to get any sort of acceleration with those gears. The 3:50 first gear times the 2:41 rear gets you only 8.4 to 1 overall ratio. You will still be riding the clutch a bit to get going. My old 1981 Malibu wagon came with a 3:50 first gear three speed Saginaw, 2:41 rear. Just horrible gear spread. A 3:11 first gear 4 speed Saginaw with a 3:23 rear was much better. A 3:08 rear with that 3:50 4 speed trans would be nice too. This is the shifter and installation kit. See the special shifter mount at the top.
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Both my 79 and my 80 Malibus came stock with 2.29 rears. I believe some of the mid-late 80s Cutlass models were delivered with 2.14 gearsets. I do have a 78 wagon that was originally a California V6 equipped car that has a 2.73 rear axle. My 49 State wagons all had either 241 or 256 gears. Auto makers were really struggling in that area to get some sort of mileage out of these cars and the only way they knew was to lower RPM via final drive ratio apparently
 
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I had one of each 2:41 and 2:73 in my 2 Olds’ 79’ was a V6 2:73 and the 78’ 442 had a 260cid w/2:41. Long story short, yes a BBO will smoke the tire of a 2:41 gear rear!😏
with the old school transmission you can buy the shifter hump to weld right in.
 
My '81 Monte was an original 229 with a 2.41 befor my V8/4 speed conversion. I used a 3.11 1st gear Saginaw which was OK & spun the one wheel wonder in all 4 gears but didn't live long. The replacement was a 2.29 which was the only rear handy at the time. It was good for gas mileage with fair take off but wasn't taking the lead at the light. Now it has a 2.73 which with the 3.11 is close to a 2.52 Muncie with a 3.08. This is the same combo that'll be in my boy's '79 Monte. It's all about doing the math compairing 1st gear/rear end gear combos to see what could act like the performance combos. A deep 3.50 could ley you go under 2.73 but might make 4th feel like over drive & won't me good for most in town driving.

Now for the shifter. Hurst does list a Comp Plus shifter for our cars but some years back discontinued the complete install kit with all but a few parts also being discontinued. The GM ITM shifter is out there but hard to find & not always complete. On good thing is the 3 & 4 speed share parts other than 3 & 4 speed specific parts. The GM installed Hurst shifters (used '78-'79 & mainly in Pontiacs) are very simular to the ITM other than the shift gate guts being Hurst design. They share the rods, arms & mounting parts. There is one Comp Plus on Ebay but they seller wants almost $1K for it. He also has a restored GM installed Hurst for the same amount. Regardless, the shifter mounting bracket needs a Saginaw with a flat side tail housing to fit the transmission. The side cover should have the back up light switch boss casted in like the factory stick cars.

Search the site & you can find a thread on making a Muncie or T10 work in the stock shifter location. I keep forgetting the member's name but he did a very good job on the modification.

If you want to use stock clucth linkage most of it is repopped but some parts are claimmed to fit but are far from able to. Have to find the correct '78-'81 A-body specific bellhousing. Most likely it'll be for a 10.4"clutch/153 tooth flywheel. I do believe gnvair has a 11" clutch/168 tooth flywheel bellhousing for sale on Ebay. The clutch fork is also specific to our cars. Then there is the firewall clutch rod boot. Currently El Camino Manufacturing owns the original GM boot molds but don't have a molder to make them or have any instock. They are currently trying to sell a 2nd gen F-body boot as a fit but doesn't. Most venders who have boots listed in stock also have them too. I'm working on finding a good alternate that'll work for the boy's car as we need one. Might be a good idea to even check out hydraulic throw out bearing which there are mount plates made for the slave cylinder mounting in our cars. The steel hump, plastic trim hump, boot & bezel are also repopped. Your original carpet might have the glued on under pad with the location for the hump precut. The hard to find part will be tring to get a '79-'81 manual shift column for the ease of keeping your original ignition lock & key if you want the original look but it won't have the wiper/turn signal switch but a little body work on the column shifter mount it'll look like a floor shift column.

There are possible used sources for the bellhousing like mechanical clutch linkage '82-'84 F-bodies with V8/4 speeds but I'm not 100%. The aftermarket TKX supose to have a stock location shifter for our cars but I never dug into that & not sure how much you really want to throw into this project. This would allow you to run a 3.42 or deeper rear gear.

You'll have to understand the best route to do this is based on budget, how original looking you want it, what you're willing to change to get the conversion done & would you might want to upgrade from a Saginaw to something stronger.
 
Not knowing where you live, there is this gentleman on Craig’s list and I’ve seen him there for many years. Seems to buy/sell/ rebuild transmissions and shifters. He’s out of Vt. And has his phone number at the bottom of the listing.
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There is another gentleman in Rode Island that is a G-body warehouse and may have a large amount of parts .
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And last , these guys have been a great help for me and the have used parts as well if you call them they may have something, Dixie Restoration Depot out of Conn. you can find there link down at the bottom of the site here as they are a sponsor.
 
$1200 Saginaws?!?!

Back in the 80s, you'd be lucky to get $50 for one. Good Muncies were $250 and everybody thought the guy at the big swap meet was nuts asking $600 for completely gone-through late (big shaft) Muncie M21s

Now where did I put that time machine.......
 
$1200 Saginaws?!?!

Back in the 80s, you'd be lucky to get $50 for one. Good Muncies were $250 and everybody thought the guy at the big swap meet was nuts asking $600 for completely gone-through late (big shaft) Muncie M21s

Now where did I put that time machine.......
I picked up Jr.'s Saginaw for $125 last December & just over $210 shipped for the ITM shifter in the past year & a half. Insurance gave me $450 just for my '81's Saginaw when gas company contract workers stole it in April '12. I remember in the '90's being able to pick up a few at "all I could carry" for $75 which scored me 3. I was younger & in better shape. But if that is a production line Hurst as the shifter rods leads to I'd give it some extra value & say it's close to a acceptible price. Then again I can be cheap & low ball on a Saginaw regardless.
 
My current ride is an 85 Monte Carlo S/S with a Muncie 4 speed and Hurst Comp Plus. As noted most of the parts needed to drop a manual can be had post factory but............... there are a few things to consider. One is that the factory Z bar has issues in how it is constructed. Under heavy use the arms will bend. The factory clutch rods wear; if you find ones at the swap meet it is almost a surety that they are there because the pivot point is worn away. They can be had in a competition or super street form from a dealer down in Texas; think I got the addy from Bonnewagon or he will know to whom I'm referring. The third pedal is available from OPGI as I recall. I found all mine in hulks over at the salvage yard a good many years ago. I think that you could convert an auto single pedal assembly to hang the third pedal but would need a few bits to make it work. You will also need to find the frame bracket that supports the Z bar, plus the correct metric bolts to install it. Those bolts are application specific and if you get in behind the driver's front wheel near the hanger bracket for the brake hose and do some cleaning and scraping with a wire brush, you should find the three mounting holes for that bracket as they were punched into the frame at the factory and just left empty for the automatics.

The 168 tooth bellhousing is also known as the big block bell housing because the big block flywheels came with 168 teeth. When I first built my mill, I went with a 168 tooth wheel and found that the small block bellhousing would not fit over it; couldn't lay my hands on the matching 168 bellhousing so I had to swap the wheel out for a 153 and that worked okay.

Right now I have two Saginaws sitting in the basement; one is fitted with the stock shifter assembly for an early 80's Camaro. I ran a Saginaw in my 75 Monza and learned that the syncros had short working lives. You will probably hear at some point that the Saginaws are "glass boxes" meaning that they break easily. In a totally stock configuration there is some truth to that accusation but they can be built to tolerate life on the street. Don't think I'd want to put one on the strip or a road course but expect there are parts for them to go there as well.

It ought to be possible to go with a hydraulic clutch and avoid all the hassle of setting up the factory mechanical version unless you favor the factory retro look.




Nick
 
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Hi I’m looking for some help. I am thinking about swapping out my auto for a 4speed in my 83 el Camino . I think a 3 groove Saginaw might work with my rear end it’s a 2.41. My confusion at the moment is the type of shifter and mounting kit . There is like a million choices . I want to keep my bench seat. Any thoughts would be appreciated . Thanks!
Definitely mount the shifter on the floor of the body. Putting it on the side of the transmission will result in incessant rattling, no matter how smooth the engine is. Since you might sometimes have a short driver, put it far enough forward for the seat to go to its farthest forward position. Get an acetylene torch and braze together , i.e. fabricate, the necessary linkage.

Your gear ratios sound good to me. With a 3.50X2.41 you will have a nice first gear; not so high that it requires excessive slipping of the clutch, but not so low that you need to shift up as soon as you get moving. A 2.41 axle will give good mileage on the highway.
 

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