Red or Black Body Bushings

[GuysMonteSS]

Alot of places say black lasts longer than red. Avoid poly bushings with graphite in them, all the graphite does is make the bushing weaker.

Mark Savitske @ SC&C told me that the graphite poly bushings were the best ones to use.
Guy

 

[dlo253]

Alot of places say black lasts longer than red. Avoid poly bushings with graphite in them, all the graphite does is make the bushing weaker.

Alot of places say they are better, yet they are weaker??

 

[Clone TIE Pilot]

Alot of places say black lasts longer than red. Avoid poly bushings with graphite in them, all the graphite does is make the bushing weaker.

Alot of places say they are better, yet they are weaker??

Body bushings are static, they don't rotate and therefore they don't need to be lubed. In fact you don't want them to move. Graphite is weaker than poly and makes the bushings like swiss cheese, like the Titanic's steel full of weaker nodules. The only time poly squeaks is when they are used in rotational joints since poly binds badly when used for that.

 

[joesregalproject]

Alot of places say black lasts longer than red. Avoid poly bushings with graphite in them, all the graphite does is make the bushing weaker.

Alot of places say they are better, yet they are weaker??

Well with everyone bickering about who is right all the time, it's awfully hard to learn anything. Until someone can find several instances that prove they are weaker, I wouldn't assume they are. Same thing with the body bushings with the metal sleeve/collar inside- unless someone can find several instances and scientifically prove they cause the frame to rust out, I wouldn't assume they do. Based on all the discussions on body bushings and hardware between clone, GP, Fox80, Jack, Blake442, and countless others on this forum I've concluded that it's best to go with the Energy Suspension Bushings (either color) with the metal collar inside and the 10.9 bolts with antiseize torqued to 52 ft lbs.

Also, did anyone ever find out if these specific bushings even even graphite in them? After all Energy says "certain" bushings have graphite in them.

 

[GuysMonteSS]

When I talked to Mark Savitske he recommended body bushings with graphite in them and I used these ones from PST;
http://www.p-s-t.com/s.nl/it.A/id.7004/.f?sc=12
Just my opinion here,but I would trust Mark to steer me in the right direction.Not only is he the author of "How To Make Your Muscle Car Handle";
http://scandc.com/new/node/4
And runs his own performance suspension oriented business;
http://scandc.com/new/
And is very adept at putting together suspension packages to help your muscle car handle better,like he helped me out,and he has been playing with G Body cars for many years.
I value his experience way above any "internet experts".
You are free to form your own opinions,as we all are.
As to wether or not those particular bushings actually have any graphite in them,I cant answer that question,but maybe James@PST will comment on this.
They seem to work quite well for me,and the last time my Monte was on a hoist,they appear to be holding up quite well.
Guy

 

[Clone TIE Pilot]

Alot of places say black lasts longer than red. Avoid poly bushings with graphite in them, all the graphite does is make the bushing weaker.

Alot of places say they are better, yet they are weaker??

Well with everyone bickering about who is right all the time, it's awfully hard to learn anything. Until someone can find several instances that prove they are weaker, I wouldn't assume they are. Same thing with the body bushings with the metal sleeve/collar inside- unless someone can find several instances and scientifically prove they cause the frame to rust out, I wouldn't assume they do. Based on all the discussions on body bushings and hardware between clone, GP, Fox80, Jack, Blake442, and countless others on this forum I've concluded that it's best to go with the Energy Suspension Bushings (either color) with the metal collar inside and the 10.9 bolts with antiseize torqued to 52 ft lbs.

Also, did anyone ever find out if these specific bushings even even graphite in them? After all Energy says "certain" bushings have graphite in them.

It isn't the metal collar (know as a spacer) that causes frame rust since it doesn't come into contact with the frame since it is in the middle of the bushing and insulated by the bushing. It is rather the sheetmetal reinforcing insert molded into the bottom of the upper bushings, not the bolt collar, that causes frame rust. This insert come in contact with the frame allowing ions to be conducted. There are some people here who have confused the two parts. But I have seen with my own two eyes what molded in inserts do to frames. Just because a proposition is popular doesn't make it correct, that would be an appeal to the people fallacy. It is a fact that metal to metal contract promotes rust since ions travel through the direct contact point which causes rust.

I have read of many reports of red bushings crumble away and the blacks ones not failing like that. I have yet to read a reason for this, I think their are even old treads on this forum that talk about this that predates me.

Impregnating a material with a weaker material usually doesn't make it stronger. Graphite is what pencils are made of and it can be broken and smashed with you finger tips. Not stuff you want diluting your load bearing material. Since body mounts are static, lube is not requried or wanted anyway. You don't want the body mounts to be sliding around. BTW, PST just rebrands Energy Suspension products, they don't really manufacture their own parts, they just put together kits for sale. :|

 

[joesregalproject]

It isn't the metal collar (know as a spacer) that causes frame rust since it doesn't come into contact with the frame since it is in the middle of the bushing and insulated by the bushing. It is rather the sheetmetal reinforcing insert molded into the bottom of the upper bushings, not the bolt collar, that causes frame rust. This insert come in contact with the frame allowing ions to be conducted. There are some people here who have confused the two parts. But I have seen with my own two eyes what molded in inserts do to frames. Just because a proposition is popular doesn't make it correct, that would be an appeal to the people fallacy. It is a fact that metal to metal contract promotes rust since ions travel through the direct contact point which causes rust.

I have read of many reports of red bushings crumble away and the blacks ones not failing like that. I have yet to read a reason for this, I think their are even old treads on this forum that talk about this that predates me.

Impregnating a material with a weaker material usually doesn't make it stronger. Graphite is what pencils are made of and it can be broken and smashed with you finger tips. Not stuff you want diluting your load bearing material. Since body mounts are static, lube is not requried or wanted anyway. You don't want the body mounts to be sliding around. BTW, PST just rebrands Energy Suspension products, they don't really manufacture their own parts, they just put together kits for sale. :|

Whether it's the collar or sheet metal insert that you believe causes rust, I still don't believe it because I have yet to see one other case of it and if you can't do it twice it isn't science. Also I have yet to hear anyone have their new Energy bushings cause that problem and/or fail. And yes I understand what graphite is and what it's used for, but you still didn't answer my question- do these specific bushings (Energy 3-4141G) contain graphite? Believe me I'm not trying to be a dick here, and I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, but I'm trying to form my own opinion based off what everyone is saying here and from that opinion make a decision on how to do things on my car.

 

[pontiacgp]

you can always call Energy Suspensions tech department (888) 913-6374 to find out

 

[dlo253]

Alot of places say black lasts longer than red. Avoid poly bushings with graphite in them, all the graphite does is make the bushing weaker.

Alot of places say they are better, yet they are weaker??

Body bushings are static, they don't rotate and therefore they don't need to be lubed. In fact you don't want them to move. Graphite is weaker than poly and makes the bushings like swiss cheese, like the Titanic's steel full of weaker nodules. The only time poly squeaks is when they are used in rotational joints since poly binds badly when used for that.

I am fully aware of this. Your previous post sounded sort of contradicting. Opens saying they last longer, and ending saying they are weaker. That is all.

 

[Clone TIE Pilot]

It isn't the metal collar (know as a spacer) that causes frame rust since it doesn't come into contact with the frame since it is in the middle of the bushing and insulated by the bushing. It is rather the sheetmetal reinforcing insert molded into the bottom of the upper bushings, not the bolt collar, that causes frame rust. This insert come in contact with the frame allowing ions to be conducted. There are some people here who have confused the two parts. But I have seen with my own two eyes what molded in inserts do to frames. Just because a proposition is popular doesn't make it correct, that would be an appeal to the people fallacy. It is a fact that metal to metal contract promotes rust since ions travel through the direct contact point which causes rust.

I have read of many reports of red bushings crumble away and the blacks ones not failing like that. I have yet to read a reason for this, I think their are even old treads on this forum that talk about this that predates me.

Impregnating a material with a weaker material usually doesn't make it stronger. Graphite is what pencils are made of and it can be broken and smashed with you finger tips. Not stuff you want diluting your load bearing material. Since body mounts are static, lube is not requried or wanted anyway. You don't want the body mounts to be sliding around. BTW, PST just rebrands Energy Suspension products, they don't really manufacture their own parts, they just put together kits for sale. :|

Whether it's the collar or sheet metal insert that you believe causes rust, I still don't believe it because I have yet to see one other case of it and if you can't do it twice it isn't science. Also I have yet to hear anyone have their new Energy bushings cause that problem and/or fail. And yes I understand what graphite is and what it's used for, but you still didn't answer my question- do these specific bushings (Energy 3-4141G) contain graphite? Believe me I'm not trying to be a dick here, and I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, but I'm trying to form my own opinion based off what everyone is saying here and from that opinion make a decision on how to do things on my car.

Going from my own experience, every rubber body bushing in my car had rusted inserts. They were all seperating from the rubber and in much poorer shape than the rubber itself. One of my old bushings the insert was gone, rusted completely away taking the frame mount with it, but the bushing still looked fine from the outside, no cracks or splits. At least for me, the molded in inserts were the most deteriorated part of my old bushings. It is a very known fact that rust spreads from bad metal to infect good metal, that is how it creeps under paint and other coatings. IE, rust spreads from the inserts to the frame mounts since they are in direct contact. Researching body bushing replacement online, I have seen that every posted photo of old rubber bushings shows them having rusting inserts seperating from the rubber. Many have posted about a pile of rust coming out of the old bushings when they are removed. It seems to be a pretty common phenomenon going by all the postings online about body bushing replacement showing rusting inserts and . Perhaps Energy Suspension rust proof their inserts better than GM did, but I didn't want to take the chance and choose bushings without inserts. Here is one post about a Ford Explorer body bushing hardware rusting out http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=292471&page=2 Here is another example of rusty bushing inserts in a Jeep, http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/kens-1985-cj7-refurbishment-thread-1040550/index102.html.

I do not know if that model number of Enegry Suspension bushings are polygraphite bushings, it was a general remark about polygrapite bushings. Not all black poly bushings have graphite, but I guess some brands may use color to denote if they are polygraphite or regular poly. I have seen red poly bushings with graphite swirls in it. My black poly bushings don't contain graphite.