Settle a brake argument

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Bonnewagon

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with the manual brake I get a consistant pedal that is higher than than the power brake set up and the pedal does not travel like it did with the power brake set up
That is what I am talking about. I once even fabricated an adjustable Firebird manual brake push rod to fit inside the G-body power booster in an effort to get the pedal travel down. While it did reduce the travel it was still not as good as manual brakes. I understand that the booster reduces the effort tremendously, But they put a big spring inside to give you some resistance otherwise you would over-brake and lock them up. That is what you feel when you drain the booster of vacuum- the big spring. My issue is when you bleed and adjust your brakes as high as you can, and the pedal is way up there, then once the engine starts the pedal drops so much. I have never seen a car that this did not occur. 69hurstOlds are you saying that there is no solid connection between the pedal push rod and the MC push rod? That may explain it.
 

pontiacgp

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Mar 31, 2006
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You will never find a circle track car with power brakes and there is some young kids driving those cars. We had a scrawny 14 yo kid driving our G body asphalt circle track car and he had no problem with the brakes and could modulate them unlike a power brake
 

Bonnewagon

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Well I just made a very scientific test of two almost identical G-bodies. One is my 301 V-8 with a dual diaphragm booster. The other is a 231 V-6 with a dual diaphragm booster. I took a yardstick and measured the applied pedal-to-floor distance both with and without the booster on. BOTH cars yielded the same results. Without boost the applied pedal was three inches from the floor and with boost the applied pedal was two inches from the floor. Both cars exactly the same. I believe this supports my claim that the booster increases pedal travel.
 

TURNA

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Jul 24, 2009
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Well I just made a very scientific test of two almost identical G-bodies. One is my 301 V-8 with a dual diaphragm booster. The other is a 231 V-6 with a dual diaphragm booster. I took a yardstick and measured the applied pedal-to-floor distance both with and without the booster on. BOTH cars yielded the same results. Without boost the applied pedal was three inches from the floor and with boost the applied pedal was two inches from the floor. Both cars exactly the same. I believe this supports my claim that the booster increases pedal travel.

Or the firewall is weak and flexing
 

pontiacgp

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Or the firewall is weak and flexing

the firewall does flex but you won't notice it. I cracked my firewall with the clutch pedal so I made a doubler on the firewall for the manual brake cylinder and master clutch cylinder
 
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ssn696

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When vacuum is applied to the front of the diaphragm, and the pedal is at rest, the balance valve is open allowing vacuum to be on each side of the diaphragm, effectively balancing out the diaphragm where it has no pressure on either side of it, except the spring in the front to keep it from actuating the master cylinder. The filtered air inlet (brake pedal shaft inside the car) valve is closed. So vacuum builds up in the booster on both sides of the diaphragm. As you press the brake pedal, it closes the balance valve on the back side of the diaphragm, and now the vacuum is only felt on the front side. The valve also opens allowing atmospheric (higher pressure) air on the back side of the diaphragm. This easily overcomes the spring pressure on the front of the diaphragm, which pushes the diaphragm forward, and full pedal travel can occur.
Ever see a commercial toilet stuck in flush mode? Same principle. Water pressure on both side of a diaphragm. Pull the handle, and the pressure on one side is released, lifting the valve open. There is a pinhole in the diaphragm that allows the water pressure to build back up, equally on both sides, shutting the valve. If a bit of dirt gets on that pinhole, the valve never shuts.
 

Bonnewagon

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Or the firewall is weak and flexing
I think I'd noticed an inch of firewall flex. Besides, when you keep your foot on the brake pedal and turn on the engine- the pedal just falls away. It has to be the booster. I think 69hurstolds nailed it. There is no solid connection between the pedal pushrod and booster pushrod. The internal workings difference is the inch of travel. This whole argument began when a buddy suggested that with manual brakes- boosted brakes- or boosted with no boost- the pedal travel is the same. I showed him the yardstick difference yet he won't budge. In any other circumstance I would call him a moron and move on. But he inspects my cars and I don't want to alienate him. No matter how ignorant he can be.
 

1KWIKSIX

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Jun 26, 2017
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Hmmm, wondering if installing residual pressure valves in your brake lines might fix the problem?
2# for front disc brake line and 10# for drum brakes.

 

Bonnewagon

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I would not do that. Disc brakes have a small out-of-roundness machined in to the rotor so that they push the pads away. About .004". More than that and you get a pulsing pedal. Any residual pressure would cause them to drag and over heat. The residual pressure valve is used on drum brakes to take up most of the free play when they are released. It is usually about 10 psi and is built in to the combination valve. A malfunctioning valve would indeed cause excessive travel. I replaced the combination valve on the other car a few years ago. The rear brakes were locking up. So with a brand new valve the pedal travel is exactly the same as mine. That tells me my valve is fine.
 
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69hurstolds

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I think I'd noticed an inch of firewall flex. Besides, when you keep your foot on the brake pedal and turn on the engine- the pedal just falls away. It has to be the booster. I think 69hurstolds nailed it. There is no solid connection between the pedal pushrod and booster pushrod. The internal workings difference is the inch of travel. This whole argument began when a buddy suggested that with manual brakes- boosted brakes- or boosted with no boost- the pedal travel is the same. I showed him the yardstick difference yet he won't budge. In any other circumstance I would call him a moron and move on. But he inspects my cars and I don't want to alienate him. No matter how ignorant he can be.
Like I said, my explanation mode doesn't work all the time and words don't match what's in my head. Which is usually nothing new. I also acknowledge I am not an expert of the inner workings of the Delco dual diaphragm brake booster. I started looking up parts and stuff for it and the "balance" valve I was thinking of is simply called an "air valve". And the "control valve" is what regulates the atmospheric air coming in from the cabin, which goes through a felt filter around the pedal pushrod. If you hear a loud "whoosh" sound from the booster when it operates, check to see if the felt has degraded or fell out. It kinda acts like a noise filter too.

The m/c push rod, once it starts to move, will move the m/c pistons to stop the car with nominal difference in distance, which is what TURNA was trying to describe. That's the "no" part of the travel distance. It's not really much of a difference in push rod travel at that point when the brakes are applied. But the booster guts have to move a certain distance and with the power assist, the movement is easier.

I guess the best way to explain the hard pedal you get when you run out of vacuum is that you're basically pushing the valve guts taking up the "slop" so to speak. THEN you start pushing on the m/c. So taking up the slack takes some pedal travel. So assuming you had the same length fulcrum between the manual or power brake systems, the "yes" part of the increased travel is including the part taking up the slop in the booster valving.

Is one better than the other? I prefer power brakes over manual brakes any day, although you always have to remember the more moving parts you add to a system, the more maintenance that system may need. Gigantic cams or boosted cars making plss poor vacuum makes manual brake systems more desirable due to that alone, but you can get vacuum cans, and other "tricks" to maintain your system with monster cam applications. Or get a hydroboost system, which comes with it's own set of problems. I don't know too much about that system except to me it acts like a mini brake system to assist your brake system.



In either case, manual or power assist, always make sure your brakes are adjusted properly and workings are top notch. You don't want a faulty brake system keeping you from celebrating your next birthday.
 
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