I've always liked the early 90's Geo Metros with the three cylinders. Damn fun up here in the mountains with all of our dirt roads, and the snow in the winter. I also want to put the entire drivetrain of a '05 or later STI Impreza into an '89 Ford Escort GT, manual trans of course. Or to really piss off the ricers, a lingenfilter turbocharged LS1 into a late model Miata.
What's Your Automotive Perversion?
- Thread starter 85 Cutlass Brougham
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I found a Honda S2000 with an LS1 swap in progress on a S2000 forum, and a bunch of BMW's being converted to LSX power as well. Seems that the BMW engines are extraordinarily expensive to rebuild or modify, and the S2000 also costs a little much to get power out of the original 2 or 2.2 liter engine.
no offense meant, but I feel that ANY four cylinder is too expensive to build power on. Not that you can't make a v8 car as expensive as any other. But for example: me and a group of friends around here all drive 60's or 70's era american muscle, none of us have spent more than five grand total on our rides, all of them usable for everyday drivers, and not a single one of them slower than 12 seconds. I know the saying "to each his own", and I give respect to any who do it right, it is just too expensive with too little payoff for me. That's why even though those cars I listed before sounded cool, they are something I would never really do.
Well, it all depends on the 4 cylinder car. Hondas are a poor choice as the parts to make them go fast are cost prohibitive. However, ANY 4G63 powered car with a manual transmission can go from 14's to 12's for under $1,000. There is a guy who was supposed to run in the GRM $2007 challenge race with a Dodge Colt Turbo that ran 10.90's. ( Swapped from 4G61t to a DSM 4G63t) This engine can reliably take 25lbs of boost on the stock bottom end, and the basic cars with factory turbo engines can usually be found in serviceable condition for around $1000-1500. The other car capable of a good ghetto turbo setup is the KA24DE powered S13 chassis Nissan 240sx. Using mostly used parts, it can be turboed for around $1500. It has a forged crank and rods form the factory ( all Nissan 4's do), a main cap girdle, piston cooling oil squirters, solid lifter cams, and turbo friendly compression. Those cars too are available for less than $1,000, plus they are RWD with a stout differential and factory optional LSD diff. I have a KA24DE in my truck and it sees redline powershifts all day long-with 269k miles on it. Yet another 4 capable of decent performance on mostly stock internals is the Ford 2.3 used in the Mustang SVO, T-Bird turbo Coupe, Cougar XR-7, and the Merkur XR4TI ( European Ford Sierra). Then there is the RWD Mitsubishi Starion/Chrysler Conquest TSI from the mid to late 80's. They ran mid 15's stock ( like the majority of Musclecars in the 60's), but turn up the boost on the 2.6 liter 4 and it too will go fast for little cash. Chrysler products from the 80's/90's with the 2.2/2.5 turbo engine also respond well for little cash and can get into the 12's with mostly cheap junkyard parts. As far as 60's/70's cars being cheap goes, around here a rusty 4 door Chevelle is easily $2500-4000 with a 307/powerglide, same goes for Maverics, Rambler Americans, AMC Hornet wagons, etc. Anything even slightly desirable is considerably more with rusty 2 door Chevelle shells going for $5,000 in need of a rotisserie restoration to be safe and useable. My BMW proposal starts with a car that typically fetches $300-500 in inoperable but complete and rust free form. It then adds a junkyard engine and used speed parts along with time and fabrication to make it fast and reliable. I can theoretically go 12's with it for under $2,000, but could probably do the same with a ratty 5.0 Mustang or Capri too. Anyhow, my point is that there are platforms out there with a variety of drivetrain configurations capable of being cheap for very little money but a lot of technical knowledge and research. I for one, refuse to get stuck using only the technologies of 30+ years ago to go fast, otherwise the ability for me to build something fun on a budget will not be there in 5-10 years time. I predict that within 5-10 years G bodies too will become unobtainable for someone who is low income as the last of the mid sized GM body on frame cars gradually die of attrition and become desirable.
while most of your info holds merritt, 12's are not that easily seen by a four cylinder car, trust me I tune them. Most of those off-80's cars you listed weren't even capable of a 16 second pass, and are so scarce that they aren't even worth looking for. Let alone finding aftermarket to support them, I don't recal ever seeing anything for that Mopar car you mentioned. The one exception there of course is the 2.3 ford motor, potentially fast, once again, I will give respect to those who build it right. (by right I mean don't slap a fart can, some clear corners, and rims on a car and try to make anyone think you're fast.) As far as price goes, we must be in a completely different price zone. A grand anywhere in Ca. wont get you a 240 even remotely resembling a drivable car, and if you've ever had to rebuild a wrecked one you know those parts aint cheap. Around here $2500 - $4000 can still get you a driveable first gen Camaro (the so-called cream of the crop). We've all pulled our cars from people's back yards, fixed them up, made them daily drivers, and even turn twelve seconds or better. They may not be the choicest of years, but then again if any of us really gave a crap about what people though of our rides we would all be driving Tahoes, Expiditions, and Escalades right?🙂 Heres what we got: 1979 Camaro (mine), 1968 Mustang sedan, 1971 Ford Maverick (two door), 1978 Trans Am, 1973 Chevelle (two door), 1974 Nova (two door), 1972 Charger, and a 1969 Cougar. I guess it really depends on what you are into, we like to take old muscle and make it live again. To any of us, it just seems to be too much work, money and hassle to make the final outcome worth it. But who am I to speak anyway, our entire group got stomped by a couple of late sixties VW bugs running low 10's on VW engines with NO power adders. Oh that was one last thing, with that same ammount of money and some creative gearhead engineering, anyone of us (and all of you included) could make ANY turbo run our v8s, then where would we be? Apples and Oranges I suppose.
Well, CA is a totally different market from the rest of the country. There is far less precipitation and humididty in much of the southern part of the state and rust is not as big an issue there. I can get running 240's for $500-1,000 all day long, and KA parts are super cheap here. I bought a complete FS5W71-C manual trans from one last year for $50 just to take it apart and see what made it tick. I was going to use it for spare parts from my truck, but the truck trans was different. For $4,000 here, you can usually find one with a SR20DET swap that runs and drives, but is a little ratty. Very nice SR20DET cars usually trade in the $8,000-14,000 range depending on what's done. I even found a B18C1 swapped EG Civic coupe for $1,000 that had 17 in wheels, etc already done. I'm not a Honda fan ( I like Nissans and BMW's for imports), but even I recognize this as a lot of econobox for the money.I got a 1g DSM for a friend (AWD GSX) for $1400, and we dropped 1.5 seconds off it's 1/8 mile time for $80 using a cheap bleed valve boost controller. As for the Mopars, yeah, they are getting scarce, but with some imagination they do run. For Example, the plentiful Volvo/Saab intercooler is huge and around $30, plus the T-3 flange turbo is also cheap and can be found on a variety of engines from the 80's and 90's. A BOV from a 1G DSM can easily be found in the local U pull it yards for $30, and injectors can be used from a variety of cars if you know what you are doing ( For example: Infiniti Q-45's have 370cc injectors that I can get for $40 a set). Add a Megasquirt or even a Greddy SAFC( for mass air cars) to fine tune it and you can have a pretty potent combination for little money. I am not trying to push the import thing on anyone here, just saying that there are more platforms to choose from than just what is traditional.
I actually considered a twin turbo 5.0 HO for my BMW idea, using a Megasquirt to tune it properly. I even found a 47,000 mile 5.0 HO yesterday that was so clean inside you could eat off the lifter valley for $135 for the long block! There were two this nice in old fart Lincoln Mk 7's when I went. Even the leather was still good. Needless to say I was pissed that I could not spare the cash to pull it and put it away for later.
For me, the traditional musclecar has a lot of drawbacks in the handling, braking and weight departments and that is the draw of import chassis. I try to build good all around cars without a concentration on any one area. I expect them to run 12's, be good on gas, able to sit in traffic with the A/C on and stereo blasting and able to carve corners when I go out to the back roads. Weight is the key to most of these things, and that's why I want to build a V8 BMW 3 series-not that I ever will.
I actually considered a twin turbo 5.0 HO for my BMW idea, using a Megasquirt to tune it properly. I even found a 47,000 mile 5.0 HO yesterday that was so clean inside you could eat off the lifter valley for $135 for the long block! There were two this nice in old fart Lincoln Mk 7's when I went. Even the leather was still good. Needless to say I was pissed that I could not spare the cash to pull it and put it away for later.
For me, the traditional musclecar has a lot of drawbacks in the handling, braking and weight departments and that is the draw of import chassis. I try to build good all around cars without a concentration on any one area. I expect them to run 12's, be good on gas, able to sit in traffic with the A/C on and stereo blasting and able to carve corners when I go out to the back roads. Weight is the key to most of these things, and that's why I want to build a V8 BMW 3 series-not that I ever will.
hey, I'm with you on the v8 beamer thing, I really would like to see that completed, if not work on it myself. Not that that would be remotely possible since the distance is so vast. Where I am at in Ca. does not see all that much humidity, or percipitation. There are two very large and completely separate mountain ranges separating my town from the ocean (four hour drive at best possible F-body speed, six at least by speed limit to get to the coast straightline). Rust really is not that mush of a problem here as in other, more costal parts of the state. Consider that my little town is on the edge of the high desert that covers most of northern Nevada, only about an hour southeast to get into Reno.
I'm with you on Nissan being the choice of imports, I have gained a lot of respect for the KA24 and SR20 series engines. I have an older '91 Nissan Hardbody 2x, Ka24, 5-spd that I still need to sell, that always impressed me for a four cylinder pickup. By no means any match for my Ranger, but impressive none the less. I have tuned heavily on both of those motors and know very well what they are capable of. The only import cars I really don't like (besides the gross populairity of the Hondas) is the DSM cars (eclipse and Neon), with exception to the 1G Eclipse. Bad engine design with multiple fatal flaws.
Yeah I know that stock for stock old muscle cant handle like a new import, but to be fair I'll show you something going the other way. My wife's '94 Firebird Formula can easily out perform any off-the-shelf (brad new even) WRX on the twisty mountain roads (the 'bird will almost pull a full G on the skid pad from the factory), and here car is bone stock LT1. Desides there are a few suspension company offering affordable ($800-$1400) suspension kits for classic iron that drastically improve handling.
As for all the other issues you mentioned; it really is in the skill of the person with the wrench that determins how driveable, and "all around" a car can be. Brake upgrades are readily available for most cars, and retro-fit A/C systems are cheaper than rebuilding the one in any car that has been in a junkyard or backyard for years. Sure my car may never see 30mpg, but I can still drive the 200 miles to the nearest dragstrip, thrash on my car all day, and drive home; all the while pulling a very reliable 12 second timeslip on the tires and gas I used on the highway (I don't believe in tuning a car to run on a gas that you don't use everyday, I run mine on 87 octane). All eight of use travel the same way, a few use their cars for everyday driving (one really needs a 4x4 here in the snowy winters, although musclecar driving on the icey, snowy roads is quite fun).
One final thing before I close this: I run a Demon 650 double pumper carb on my 350. This demon does not have a choke assembly on it (this relates to this skill I mentioned earlier). Cold winter morning (0 degrees or lower) startups are a pain and often little more than a series of start and die excersizes. But I have spent a lot of time tuning and carefully planning the specs of my engine, that in most seasons, at any time, my car will fire on the first touch of the key. Notice "touch of the key" not crank of the engine, usually just a single shot to the starter will fire the engine. And at any time during driving; throttle response exceeds many fuel injected car I've ever driven. Carberators really offer a lot more tunablility and drivability than most think, it just relies heavily on the skill of the tuner
I'm with you on Nissan being the choice of imports, I have gained a lot of respect for the KA24 and SR20 series engines. I have an older '91 Nissan Hardbody 2x, Ka24, 5-spd that I still need to sell, that always impressed me for a four cylinder pickup. By no means any match for my Ranger, but impressive none the less. I have tuned heavily on both of those motors and know very well what they are capable of. The only import cars I really don't like (besides the gross populairity of the Hondas) is the DSM cars (eclipse and Neon), with exception to the 1G Eclipse. Bad engine design with multiple fatal flaws.
Yeah I know that stock for stock old muscle cant handle like a new import, but to be fair I'll show you something going the other way. My wife's '94 Firebird Formula can easily out perform any off-the-shelf (brad new even) WRX on the twisty mountain roads (the 'bird will almost pull a full G on the skid pad from the factory), and here car is bone stock LT1. Desides there are a few suspension company offering affordable ($800-$1400) suspension kits for classic iron that drastically improve handling.
As for all the other issues you mentioned; it really is in the skill of the person with the wrench that determins how driveable, and "all around" a car can be. Brake upgrades are readily available for most cars, and retro-fit A/C systems are cheaper than rebuilding the one in any car that has been in a junkyard or backyard for years. Sure my car may never see 30mpg, but I can still drive the 200 miles to the nearest dragstrip, thrash on my car all day, and drive home; all the while pulling a very reliable 12 second timeslip on the tires and gas I used on the highway (I don't believe in tuning a car to run on a gas that you don't use everyday, I run mine on 87 octane). All eight of use travel the same way, a few use their cars for everyday driving (one really needs a 4x4 here in the snowy winters, although musclecar driving on the icey, snowy roads is quite fun).
One final thing before I close this: I run a Demon 650 double pumper carb on my 350. This demon does not have a choke assembly on it (this relates to this skill I mentioned earlier). Cold winter morning (0 degrees or lower) startups are a pain and often little more than a series of start and die excersizes. But I have spent a lot of time tuning and carefully planning the specs of my engine, that in most seasons, at any time, my car will fire on the first touch of the key. Notice "touch of the key" not crank of the engine, usually just a single shot to the starter will fire the engine. And at any time during driving; throttle response exceeds many fuel injected car I've ever driven. Carberators really offer a lot more tunablility and drivability than most think, it just relies heavily on the skill of the tuner
If you can get complete northstar engines for $250 per you better start putting them on ebay you might have a new career85 Cutlass Brougham said:
i have a request for everybody that likes imports. STOP COMPARING THEM TO OLD MUSCLECARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
it's one of the stupidest thing you can do. a new import had better be better than a 30+ year old car. especially in the handling department. the crappiest cap out there today still has the advantage of 30+ years of metallurgy, design, computer aid, driving data, etc. pretty much any 30yr old tech is crap compared to new tech, just look at your computer. unless your still using an IBM pc-xt with 64k of memory. :lol: btw: my daily driver is an import--a vw tdi
it's one of the stupidest thing you can do. a new import had better be better than a 30+ year old car. especially in the handling department. the crappiest cap out there today still has the advantage of 30+ years of metallurgy, design, computer aid, driving data, etc. pretty much any 30yr old tech is crap compared to new tech, just look at your computer. unless your still using an IBM pc-xt with 64k of memory. :lol: btw: my daily driver is an import--a vw tdi
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