you know I am actually enjoying this conversation I am having here, although I appreciate you standing up for the musclecars. I don't feel belittled at all here (just look at the list on the man's olds, he knows whats going on). This is actually the first time I have been in a discussion with a guy who approaches the whole "import" scene from an actual hot rod point of view. And that is what he is showing me, hot rodding fundamentals; take what you got and make it better and faster. We are not having an import or domestic bashing session here at all, just two gearheads talking about their different oppinions, and I am learning a lot from it. That is valuable to me as I have a side buisness of performance tuning ALL types of cars, from brand new 2007 hondas, to classic 1920's T-bucket Fords. It really does make good money, and it is nice to finally talk to someone who knows a little about the "junkyard crawl" side of the sport compact world, just not something I find very often. Most "import guys" are shut down pretty quick with their rhetoric and bull---- they think they know, and a lot of the forums and websites I have tried to talk on are just a waste of my time. No need to get upset here, we're cool and fine, and don't worry, I'm not hanging up the ol' Chevy keys for a new sport-compact ever; I'm just learning.
What's Your Automotive Perversion?
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i am not bashing imports. let me say that again: I AM NOT BASHING IMPORTS. i just hate when people compare 30-40 year old tech to new tech. yes there is going to be a difference. you can't really say that a 69 camaro is a piece of junk because it can only pull .6 g's and a 2006 honda civic pulls .7 g's. (i am making up nubers to a relationship her--not beat me over the head with the real numbers) for one thing that 69 camaro was on bias ply tires. there's a huge handling ploblem there. it wasn't designed using a computer, it doesn't have the higher strength/lower weight materials, the almost 40 years of experience in what works and how, the aerodynamic testing. it's like comparing the new camaro vs the 69, it just doesn't work. if you want to compare an import to something then compare a 60's era j* import to a classic muscle car, or a modern import to a modern muscle car. that's all i'm saying
I am not bashing either and am a fan of both. My only problem with the whole musclecar scene today is the money spent on them. They are quickly becoming unobtainable for the common man. Sure, people make musclecars handle, and I am happy to see the parts on the market. Unfortunately, the cost of a aftermarket subframe for a 69 Camaro with big brakes, good geometry, etc is around $5-10k. Couple that to the bodywork the typical project car 69 Camaro needs or the cost of the new Dynacorn shells and it quickly gets out of the price range of the average man. Unfortunately, what I see is musclecars moving out of the Hot Rod range and into the Coachbuilt car market. Heck, I recently bought Diamont base/clear in a factory blue ( 2002 F body Navy Blue Metallic) for my Cutlass and it cost me $733-just for the paint! The thing I like about G bodies and the whole BMW 3 series thing is that they are still cheap enough to buy for under $1,000 ( or even $500) and have interchange possibilities. I like everything that is technically well constructed, import or domestic and from a variety of disciplines. However, I have more respect for cars that are owner built in an average garage rather than cars that someone just wrote a check for. I like outside the box thinking like what is in Sport Compact Car's Ultimate Street Car Challenge or the GRM $200X Challenge. I admit, my G body is typical in a lot of ways and that is on purpose as I make less than $30k a year and have to build things that will last and not consume gas and parts quickly. However, I also yearn to try something outside the box and will probably try it when resources and space become available. I have about 4 or 5 cars that I have built on paper down to the weight distribution and engine management because I happen to enjoy it. That's why I am going to school for a Mechanical Engineering degree at 33 yrs old. I want to do it for a living and not have to deliver pizza!
As for carburetors vs EFI, EFI is usually better due to it's ability to adapt to a variety of conditions. I run a Quadrajet on my 355 because it offers the best all around combination of abilities and tuneability for my needs. However, I also like the idea of the Megasquirt stand alone EMS because it allows for inexpensive tuneability with EFI, and the ability to run a variety of engines without the whole stock engine management package. This opens the door for many engines that were never before considered, or even using it to make older EFI cars run again without obsolete parts ( Cosworth Vega, old Renaults, Diahatsus, and other oddballs)
As for the Northstar for cheap, I went Monday and saw 4 or 5 Northstar Caddies sitting there, but I also saw a 47,000 mile Ford 5.0 HO that I would have pulled if I could have spared the $135 they want for a longblock assembly. I also saw the 2nd generation Taurus SHO with the 32 valve DOHC engine that is not a modular ( made by Yamaha?), have seen a Maserati Biturbo, and several other oddballs. I even saw the rustiest 1958 Mercury Monterey I will ever see ( the door skin was rusted off the frame!!), a Checker, etc.
BTW, if you want to compare a 1969 Camaro to a 1969 Japanese car, I'd choose the 1969 Datsun PL510 2 door, winner of the Trans Am under 2 liter division every year it was run. The base car has: Perfect 50/50 weight distribution, 2,000lbs curb weight, SOHC 1.6 ltr 4 cyl, 4 speed manual trans, front disc brakes standard, 4 wheel independent suspension, etc. Compare that to the base 250 l6 Camaro or the Vega or Pinto a year later and it would likely wipe the track with it. No, it's not as fast as a SS396 or a Z-28 in a straight line, but it cost half the price. It is a great car that still has a very loyal following today. There is even a swap kit to put a SR20DET in it, and it is not outside of the realm of possibility to get 500hp from these engines with extensive work, or 300 on stock internals. Also form Datsun a year later, is the 510 based 240z, or you can go back a few years and look at the rare Toyota 2000GT. Toyota also built the FJ40 Land Cruiser form the 50's through 1999, and it is widely considered to be one of the best off road vehicles ever devised.
As for carburetors vs EFI, EFI is usually better due to it's ability to adapt to a variety of conditions. I run a Quadrajet on my 355 because it offers the best all around combination of abilities and tuneability for my needs. However, I also like the idea of the Megasquirt stand alone EMS because it allows for inexpensive tuneability with EFI, and the ability to run a variety of engines without the whole stock engine management package. This opens the door for many engines that were never before considered, or even using it to make older EFI cars run again without obsolete parts ( Cosworth Vega, old Renaults, Diahatsus, and other oddballs)
As for the Northstar for cheap, I went Monday and saw 4 or 5 Northstar Caddies sitting there, but I also saw a 47,000 mile Ford 5.0 HO that I would have pulled if I could have spared the $135 they want for a longblock assembly. I also saw the 2nd generation Taurus SHO with the 32 valve DOHC engine that is not a modular ( made by Yamaha?), have seen a Maserati Biturbo, and several other oddballs. I even saw the rustiest 1958 Mercury Monterey I will ever see ( the door skin was rusted off the frame!!), a Checker, etc.
BTW, if you want to compare a 1969 Camaro to a 1969 Japanese car, I'd choose the 1969 Datsun PL510 2 door, winner of the Trans Am under 2 liter division every year it was run. The base car has: Perfect 50/50 weight distribution, 2,000lbs curb weight, SOHC 1.6 ltr 4 cyl, 4 speed manual trans, front disc brakes standard, 4 wheel independent suspension, etc. Compare that to the base 250 l6 Camaro or the Vega or Pinto a year later and it would likely wipe the track with it. No, it's not as fast as a SS396 or a Z-28 in a straight line, but it cost half the price. It is a great car that still has a very loyal following today. There is even a swap kit to put a SR20DET in it, and it is not outside of the realm of possibility to get 500hp from these engines with extensive work, or 300 on stock internals. Also form Datsun a year later, is the 510 based 240z, or you can go back a few years and look at the rare Toyota 2000GT. Toyota also built the FJ40 Land Cruiser form the 50's through 1999, and it is widely considered to be one of the best off road vehicles ever devised.
im glad other people are like this too
i have a thing for station wagons.. for some reason i like them
think.. mitsubishi diamante wagon (already has the same engine as the non turbo stealth/3kgt) converted to the awd twin turbo setup from a stealth/3kgt.. pretty wild
another one that coulda been a great one to do from the factory.. HO quad 4 (like the 190 hp versions in the calais 442s, 190 horsepower is more than the 305's made) in a third gen camaro or firebird with a decent suspention and a 5 speed. lightweight high revving DOHC engine that would make for a lighter car, combined with decent handling and aerodynamics, one hell of a good handling/road racing car from the 80's
i like sleepers too so i always thought itd be cool build a turbo v6 similar to a grand national 3.8 or syclone/typhoon 4.3 and swap it in an unsuspecting car body, like GMC vandura or the likes
me and my dad have kicked around the idea of strapping two v8's together (saw it done in a tractor pull tractor) and modifying a new tunnel in like a station wagon or van to keep the stock appearance on the outside, just basically adding another cradle for the 2nd engine and another one for the transmission and have a custom short driveshaft made
not to mention toning down a monster truck to drive on the streets, ya know maybe hide some of that suspention somehow, throw some smaller yet still large size tires, small enough to be road legal and not freakin huge and baloon-like, and just drivin a monster truck down the street. not to run over cars just to go ditch bangin every once in a while, have the ability to light up all 4 tires for as long as you want, 1600 hp at the tip of your toe
i have a thing for station wagons.. for some reason i like them
think.. mitsubishi diamante wagon (already has the same engine as the non turbo stealth/3kgt) converted to the awd twin turbo setup from a stealth/3kgt.. pretty wild
another one that coulda been a great one to do from the factory.. HO quad 4 (like the 190 hp versions in the calais 442s, 190 horsepower is more than the 305's made) in a third gen camaro or firebird with a decent suspention and a 5 speed. lightweight high revving DOHC engine that would make for a lighter car, combined with decent handling and aerodynamics, one hell of a good handling/road racing car from the 80's
i like sleepers too so i always thought itd be cool build a turbo v6 similar to a grand national 3.8 or syclone/typhoon 4.3 and swap it in an unsuspecting car body, like GMC vandura or the likes
me and my dad have kicked around the idea of strapping two v8's together (saw it done in a tractor pull tractor) and modifying a new tunnel in like a station wagon or van to keep the stock appearance on the outside, just basically adding another cradle for the 2nd engine and another one for the transmission and have a custom short driveshaft made
not to mention toning down a monster truck to drive on the streets, ya know maybe hide some of that suspention somehow, throw some smaller yet still large size tires, small enough to be road legal and not freakin huge and baloon-like, and just drivin a monster truck down the street. not to run over cars just to go ditch bangin every once in a while, have the ability to light up all 4 tires for as long as you want, 1600 hp at the tip of your toe
for the people in the back row-i am not bashing imports or saying that domestic is king!!! i am only talking about people comparing the stock handling, engine tech or whatever old vs new. it can't be done. look at computers, since we all have one. in 1980 how many people had a computer? why so few? because computers weren't capable of much. bill gates said that you'll never need more than 64k of ram, processors were only THEORETICALLY capable of 133KHZ, and data storage was on tape spools. what's your computer capable of now? can you compare the two. no, the technology is completely different. sure it's still binary, and a car still has 4 wheels. the technology has changed. think about it. if you took all of modern automotive science and applied it to building, from scratch, a "69"camaro, what would it do? revamp the aerodynamics, flow design and form the frame, use the best available suspension design and tech, engine tech etc. and you only have to conform to 1969 laws--no emission, no special safety equipment (seat belt and a padded dash only). but you must use an american style v8, naturally aspirated, let's say a LS7R. now compare that to imports. i am NOT saying it would be better, it's just an example of what would have to be done to compare a 69 to a 07. that will show how much things have changed! i was never talking about modifying muscle cars, i am talking about when people compare stock to stock. look at it this way---which will win a race, any race, a 69 camaro or a 2008 camaro?
and in terms of the datsun, it was a very good car, it ruled it's class, but how did it do overall? honestly i highly doubt that it would "wipe the track" with a camaro. the camaro (and especially the Trans Am--wonder where the name came from) was designed for open road handling. could the datsun win? very possible. on a really tight, small track? most likely.
i'm sorry but your point about the land cruiser is a complete load of crap. it's NOT a toyota, it's a willys jeep. after the us built the japanese car industry, we gave them some of our designs. i've worked on a few willys and toyotas. also the "best off road vehicle" title has gone to land rover a hell of alot more years than toyota. pre-ford buyout anyway!
and in terms of the datsun, it was a very good car, it ruled it's class, but how did it do overall? honestly i highly doubt that it would "wipe the track" with a camaro. the camaro (and especially the Trans Am--wonder where the name came from) was designed for open road handling. could the datsun win? very possible. on a really tight, small track? most likely.
i'm sorry but your point about the land cruiser is a complete load of crap. it's NOT a toyota, it's a willys jeep. after the us built the japanese car industry, we gave them some of our designs. i've worked on a few willys and toyotas. also the "best off road vehicle" title has gone to land rover a hell of alot more years than toyota. pre-ford buyout anyway!
The comparison I was making was against the basic six cylinder Camaro, not the better more expensive models. However, the early F bodies, and their economy X body clones, did not have anywhere near the chassis sophistication of the Datsun 510, which shares it's chassis with the 240z. The steering geometry of the F/X chassis is terrible, with it's rear steer configuration that GM changed in 1970.5 on the F bodies and 1975 on the X bodies when they went through restyling and some re engineering. They also had a leaf sprung live axle versus a semi-trailing arm IRS for the Datsun, a design adapted by BMW a year after the debut of the 510 on the 2002, and kept by BMW right through the production of the Z3 roadster. Nissan abandoned it starting in 1988 with the introduction of the 240sx, and possibly earlier on the Skyline GTR ( R32 chassis). Is the Datsun perfect? No. However, it is easier to get modern handling standards with the lighter ( by 1200-1700lbs!), better balanced ( 50/50 vs maybe 45/55 to 60/40) Dastun VS the F/X chassis GM cars. The Datsun is far from perfect form the factory, but it can be significantly improved upon by using parts from later Datsun/Nissan cars as most RWD models shared the basic architecture of the 510, and the basic engine of the 510 went through several evolutions before finally being put to rest in 2005 with the advent of the new Frontier trucks.
Anyhow, my whole point to this is that Japanese cars of this age were not as bad as you seem to think. By the late 60's/early 70's, many had advanced significanlty beyond the level of the Toyopet and 310 in terms of the overall driving experience. This is not to say that crap was not still coming from Japan at this time, as Toyota and Honda lagged behind Datsun and Mazda in terms of technology and quality. Mazda had just introduced rotary engines in this country. While it was not a Mazda original idea, they licensed it from Germany's NSU and perfected it to a point of saleability where the Germans had failed. I am unsure exactly what the arrangement between the Nagasaki-based automaker and NSU was, but I do know that NSU introduced the RO80 at about the same time as Mazda debuted the Cosmo ( neither was sold new in the US).
Anyhow, my whole point to this is that Japanese cars of this age were not as bad as you seem to think. By the late 60's/early 70's, many had advanced significanlty beyond the level of the Toyopet and 310 in terms of the overall driving experience. This is not to say that crap was not still coming from Japan at this time, as Toyota and Honda lagged behind Datsun and Mazda in terms of technology and quality. Mazda had just introduced rotary engines in this country. While it was not a Mazda original idea, they licensed it from Germany's NSU and perfected it to a point of saleability where the Germans had failed. I am unsure exactly what the arrangement between the Nagasaki-based automaker and NSU was, but I do know that NSU introduced the RO80 at about the same time as Mazda debuted the Cosmo ( neither was sold new in the US).
wow, this is really getting to be fun. What was the absolute lowest package available on the old 510? I know they are a neat car (rwd makes the biggest difference), and a lot of people like them. They go really good with an sr20det! You know, one import car I really would like to have that would take us back to the automotive perversion topic, is the '84 Toyota Carolla GTS (japan refers to it as the Trueno). The 4AGE motor, and 5spd rwd configuration are a blast to drive.
Granted a 1969 Camaro is probably the most expensive resto one can do, outside of the mopars, a smart gearhead could still build one for a reasonable price (roughly what one of those new steel bodies cost). Find an old useable shell, no motor or trans, for roughly 2500.00. Some rust is ok (yes these deals are everywhere still, even in the hemmings motor news). Crate 350, basic performance engine from GM, 2500.00, and all the accessories to make it run maybe another 1000.00. TCI 350 trans, 700.00. Hotchkis sport suspension kit, 1200.00. Stainless steel high performance disc brake upgrade kits for front and rear, 1800.00. Body patch panels maybe at the most 1000.00. Set of new 17"rims and tires 1200.00 (being generous here, many packages can be had for less). And a body shop to do ALL of the bodywork plus an at least factory quality paint job, 3000.00. I will even allow for 1500.00 to freshen up the interior. All for a total investment of $16,400.00 providing that a person is mechanically inclined enough to do their own wrenching. All of the prices were way over estimated and compensate for all of the little things that always catch us off guard. This is also assuming that one would want to buy everything brand new, most gearhead forge relationships with shops and parts houses and junkyards and can get or build all of this stuff for a very small fraction of this price. Even at the above price, the completed car would recieve nothing but compliments from any automotive crowd, (except for maybe the Barrett=Jackson groupies, but who really cares?). You keep trying to build a Camaro from scratch whitch as you say is way too expensive to even consider for most of us.
To be fair, building any type of car from scratch with nothing but brand new parts is going to be expensive. You have mentioned many time new sub-frames for Camaros, and new bodies, yet you are trying to compare that to junkyard parts off of old cars, we both know how expensive ANY brand new turbo kit for ANY car is. I have spent less on my entire car than one of those kits would cost.
All I'm really saying here is when you get down to the pure nuts and bolts of it, they all cost money, and they all can be done for as cheap or as expensive as the owner wants. Perfect example: I can build a 475+ HP 350 turn key for what GM sells their 350hp long block for! But GMs engine comes with a warranty (do you really want someone else inside your engine though?). No mater what you build it is all Hot Rodding, and it is ALL good. I just like what my money gets me with my musclecar as compared to what the import kids get for theirs.
Granted a 1969 Camaro is probably the most expensive resto one can do, outside of the mopars, a smart gearhead could still build one for a reasonable price (roughly what one of those new steel bodies cost). Find an old useable shell, no motor or trans, for roughly 2500.00. Some rust is ok (yes these deals are everywhere still, even in the hemmings motor news). Crate 350, basic performance engine from GM, 2500.00, and all the accessories to make it run maybe another 1000.00. TCI 350 trans, 700.00. Hotchkis sport suspension kit, 1200.00. Stainless steel high performance disc brake upgrade kits for front and rear, 1800.00. Body patch panels maybe at the most 1000.00. Set of new 17"rims and tires 1200.00 (being generous here, many packages can be had for less). And a body shop to do ALL of the bodywork plus an at least factory quality paint job, 3000.00. I will even allow for 1500.00 to freshen up the interior. All for a total investment of $16,400.00 providing that a person is mechanically inclined enough to do their own wrenching. All of the prices were way over estimated and compensate for all of the little things that always catch us off guard. This is also assuming that one would want to buy everything brand new, most gearhead forge relationships with shops and parts houses and junkyards and can get or build all of this stuff for a very small fraction of this price. Even at the above price, the completed car would recieve nothing but compliments from any automotive crowd, (except for maybe the Barrett=Jackson groupies, but who really cares?). You keep trying to build a Camaro from scratch whitch as you say is way too expensive to even consider for most of us.
To be fair, building any type of car from scratch with nothing but brand new parts is going to be expensive. You have mentioned many time new sub-frames for Camaros, and new bodies, yet you are trying to compare that to junkyard parts off of old cars, we both know how expensive ANY brand new turbo kit for ANY car is. I have spent less on my entire car than one of those kits would cost.
All I'm really saying here is when you get down to the pure nuts and bolts of it, they all cost money, and they all can be done for as cheap or as expensive as the owner wants. Perfect example: I can build a 475+ HP 350 turn key for what GM sells their 350hp long block for! But GMs engine comes with a warranty (do you really want someone else inside your engine though?). No mater what you build it is all Hot Rodding, and it is ALL good. I just like what my money gets me with my musclecar as compared to what the import kids get for theirs.
Some notes on the history of early Trans Am racing
Oh, one more point about the 60's pony cars, specifically the debut year 1969 Pontiac Trans Am. The SCCA mandated that the production displacement of the engines used was no larger than 5 liters, or 305 ci. The Trans Am, however, used several versions of the Pontiac 400 in factory form, and offered no smaller than a 326 ci V8 engine in any of it's cars that year ( a 287ci variant was produced in the 50's, but was long out of production by this time). So, they used a loophole and ran Chevy 302's that year ( 302's were used in Canadian Firebirds if memory serves), but ( if memory serves) went to a 303 ci destroked Pontiac starting in 1970 when the SCCA allowed destroked or debored engines in the larger engined Trans Am series.( So Ironically, the car named for the series was the least prepared for the series from the factory!) This is why the AAR Cuda and T/A Challenger ran with the 340 6 pack engine, and the 1970 1/2 Z-28 went to the LT-1 350. The Chevy 302 was simply created as a competition homologation special in a obscure option package not many knew about ( like the 1LE 3rd and 4th gen cars). Only 602 were made the first year with the only external identifier being the stripes-there was no Z-28 badge in 1967. The AMC Javelins in the early years ran the 290 bored ( or stroked) to a 304, and the Early Mopars used the 273. In fact, AMC also got into the homologation special game in 1969 with it's Trans Am replicas ( around 100 made) that were used to allow the use of a 3 piece adjustable wing, and in 1970 with the Mark Donahue Javelins that homologated another rear wing and a special variant of the AMC 360 block which was beefed up to take 4 bolt main caps and end it's bottom end reliability woes. As for Ford, it too had a homolgation special with a special engine: the Boss 302. It had a special 2 year only 302 with a Windsor block and modified Cleveland heads, the "Cross Boss" intake, and special spoilers that it shared with the Boss 429 ( which was built to homologate the 429 Hemi for NASCAR). It's interesting to note that, like NASCAR, back then Trans AM required the use of many stock parts and suspension pieces which it eventually got away from, just like NASCAR. Modifications in many cases were only allowed if the car could be ordered with them which is why parts like the "Shipped in the trunk" headers and cowl induction systems were made available on these cars. This hurt AMC the most, as it rarely offered special performance engines in it's cars and instead standardized the drivetrains from the Javelin, AMX, and Sc/Rambler with those in the Ambassador and Rebel full size cars. ( SS/AMX and Rebel Machine excepted).
As for the "Baby Trans Am" under 2 liter class, there were several competitors but none as successful as Datsun. It must be noted that Datsun was the only factory backed team. Yutaka Katayama ( pres. US operations) was a serious sports car nut and long time member of the SCCA. He was disliked by the Datsun higher ups for being "too American", and a Christian. It was largely his influence that created the 510, and it was the first Japanese car specifically targeted to American tastes. He also pushed for the Z car, and spent large amounts of corporate money to win. This is partially why Datsun dominated the BMW 2002 and Alfa Romeo Guilletta as well as privateer entries of VW Beetles, Vegas, Pintos, etc., in addition to having the better car. Brock Racing Enterprises was the factory team, and even today many 510 owners emulate the BRE 510 look with their cars. BRE also raced the earlier Datsun roadsters and the later 240z. BTW, it was Katayama that named both cars for the US market. In most other markets, the 510 was the Bluebird, and the roadster and 240z the Fairlady Z.
If I have made any errors here, please feel free to post them. I did this all from memory and some of my information is from articles I haven't read in 10-15 years, so I may have made a few errors.
Oh, one more point about the 60's pony cars, specifically the debut year 1969 Pontiac Trans Am. The SCCA mandated that the production displacement of the engines used was no larger than 5 liters, or 305 ci. The Trans Am, however, used several versions of the Pontiac 400 in factory form, and offered no smaller than a 326 ci V8 engine in any of it's cars that year ( a 287ci variant was produced in the 50's, but was long out of production by this time). So, they used a loophole and ran Chevy 302's that year ( 302's were used in Canadian Firebirds if memory serves), but ( if memory serves) went to a 303 ci destroked Pontiac starting in 1970 when the SCCA allowed destroked or debored engines in the larger engined Trans Am series.( So Ironically, the car named for the series was the least prepared for the series from the factory!) This is why the AAR Cuda and T/A Challenger ran with the 340 6 pack engine, and the 1970 1/2 Z-28 went to the LT-1 350. The Chevy 302 was simply created as a competition homologation special in a obscure option package not many knew about ( like the 1LE 3rd and 4th gen cars). Only 602 were made the first year with the only external identifier being the stripes-there was no Z-28 badge in 1967. The AMC Javelins in the early years ran the 290 bored ( or stroked) to a 304, and the Early Mopars used the 273. In fact, AMC also got into the homologation special game in 1969 with it's Trans Am replicas ( around 100 made) that were used to allow the use of a 3 piece adjustable wing, and in 1970 with the Mark Donahue Javelins that homologated another rear wing and a special variant of the AMC 360 block which was beefed up to take 4 bolt main caps and end it's bottom end reliability woes. As for Ford, it too had a homolgation special with a special engine: the Boss 302. It had a special 2 year only 302 with a Windsor block and modified Cleveland heads, the "Cross Boss" intake, and special spoilers that it shared with the Boss 429 ( which was built to homologate the 429 Hemi for NASCAR). It's interesting to note that, like NASCAR, back then Trans AM required the use of many stock parts and suspension pieces which it eventually got away from, just like NASCAR. Modifications in many cases were only allowed if the car could be ordered with them which is why parts like the "Shipped in the trunk" headers and cowl induction systems were made available on these cars. This hurt AMC the most, as it rarely offered special performance engines in it's cars and instead standardized the drivetrains from the Javelin, AMX, and Sc/Rambler with those in the Ambassador and Rebel full size cars. ( SS/AMX and Rebel Machine excepted).
As for the "Baby Trans Am" under 2 liter class, there were several competitors but none as successful as Datsun. It must be noted that Datsun was the only factory backed team. Yutaka Katayama ( pres. US operations) was a serious sports car nut and long time member of the SCCA. He was disliked by the Datsun higher ups for being "too American", and a Christian. It was largely his influence that created the 510, and it was the first Japanese car specifically targeted to American tastes. He also pushed for the Z car, and spent large amounts of corporate money to win. This is partially why Datsun dominated the BMW 2002 and Alfa Romeo Guilletta as well as privateer entries of VW Beetles, Vegas, Pintos, etc., in addition to having the better car. Brock Racing Enterprises was the factory team, and even today many 510 owners emulate the BRE 510 look with their cars. BRE also raced the earlier Datsun roadsters and the later 240z. BTW, it was Katayama that named both cars for the US market. In most other markets, the 510 was the Bluebird, and the roadster and 240z the Fairlady Z.
If I have made any errors here, please feel free to post them. I did this all from memory and some of my information is from articles I haven't read in 10-15 years, so I may have made a few errors.
I don't know where you shop for body work, but $3,000 won't get you much more than a paint job now a days. I have about that in the body of my Cutlass and I do all my own work. Primer on the car alone was over $250 (2.5 gallons of 2k epoxy primer-surfacer, etching primer for bare metal, etc) and the paint $700+. Add to that my junkyard scavenged body panels, weatherstripping, trim clips, windshield, msc. trim pieces, bondo, patches cut from other cars or scrap metal(14 in all), sand paper, wet sanding and buffing materials, welding supplies etc. and it easily gets out of hand. A friend and I did a fugly 1968 Mustang coupe shell over and replaced: floors, both quarters, taillight panel, A pillar, and had more than $1,000 in sheetmetal alone. We quit after we spent $2500 on this $650 car and sold it needing lots of everything for $1,000. It's important not to buy the cheap sheetmetal either as it usually does not fit. You also need to factor in shipping, and if you are paying to have it done, labor at shop rate of around $50 an hour. Additionally, a clapped out 38 year old Camaro will need trim pieces, new bumpers, a grille ( unless you are lucky), hinges, latches, subframe bushings, springs, tail light lenses, etc. Unless you have built a nice car from the ground up, you have no idea just how much it nickel and dimes you to death. Rust is always twice as bad as you think it will be, and there is no sense skimping on repairing it unless you like throwing money away. If you have ever seen a $2500 Camaro ( maybe it's different where you live) around here, you know it will need everything. Here, $2500 may get you a serviceable Nova without a drivetrain, but not a 69 Camaro. Even there it's sketchy. I see G body shells with asking prices of $1,000-not running. Yes, deals exist, but they are very hard to find. I saw a few cars that would be cool around here half buried in weeds while delivering Pizza, including a 68-70 Javelin, 66 Le Mans and a 65 Dart GT. I even saw a 1971 Datsun 210. While they look good from the road, closer inspection almost always reveals how bad they really are, and most need to be gutted and rebuilt from scratch.
If you've ever riden in or even driven a 302 powered Z28, that is one of the most kick *ss small blocks Chevy ever used. A very impressive motor, an nearly impossible to find these days. I don't know a whole lot of the Trans-Am racing, but what you said seems pretty close to what I remember. By the way, 300+ HP from a 1.3L engine is impressive no matter who you are. I am reffering to the twin turboed mid to late '90s RX7s with the little rotory engine.
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