Brake Master Cylinder Swap.

Status
Not open for further replies.

wnagel

Greasemonkey
Jan 26, 2013
133
26
28
Santiago Of Chile.
That's what it's all about we're all here to help each other out. Do you have a thred on the car? I think it would be interesting sense your in Chile south America is a long way from here. I work with a guy that's from Brazil he is nuts for vw bugs

This is my thread, , https://gbodyforum.com/threads/olds-cutlass-supreme-1978-from-chile.61924/

, in Chile, an oldsmobile is a very rare, very high car, my car was buy in 1982 from EEUU , has a congressional olds sticker in the trunk lid and the original owner in Chile has a air force General who work in a Govermment from this years....(military govermment).

In the past 2 week I change all front suspension like bushing, ball joints, center link , shocks etc.....my car really brake my pocket he take all my money........here in Chile its too difficult to find any spare part...in fact I buy a LAST M/C for G-body in a old spare part house....and not import any more....
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

Monte Cristo

Apprentice
Aug 10, 2015
82
30
8
Yea like I said I put used lines in mine for a factory look. By the way all 4 of my Cutlasses have the same setup 2 79s the 78 and the 87 all the same thing so if you don't want to make lines go to a junk yard and get them off of any G-BODY and put them in your car I'll see if I have a pic View attachment 73603 them on the 87 Cutlass so I'd say 78-87 is all like that and no I didn't change them all just the 78 witch was actually made in mid 1977

I would never put used brake lines in my cars. I always made my own. Not only do brake lines rust on the outside, they can rust on the inside too, and that shortens the life of the cups and seals in the cylinders.

My grandfather worked on the auto assembly lines years ago. The managers would do whatever possible to save a few pennies per car. At this same time, the engineers were working to cut as much weight as possible from the cars for fuel efficiency. So, for this to have been stock, it means they made these 1) more expensive than necessary, and 2) marginally heavier than necessary. The 1/4" tubing also balloons marginally more than the 3/16, so no reason to use it that way either. Since Clutch is too cranky to look, the OP may want to check and see if the 1/4" goes all the way back to the drums. This may have been a down and dirty quicker fix using !/4" line from the m/c to the proportioning valve.
 

Monte Cristo

Apprentice
Aug 10, 2015
82
30
8
front brakes will not put a car into a spin even if one side is pulling

Assuming for the sake of argument that you are correct and the front wheels will never lock up with regular front disk brakes, it really depends on road conditions. It could on an icy road. Even on a dry road, it doesn't help anything. They developed anti-lock brake systems for a reason. For the lawyers, something doesn't need to be the sole cause of the accident. All it needs to do is contribute to the problem. That's it.
 
Last edited:
  • Disagree
Reactions: 1 user

Monte Cristo

Apprentice
Aug 10, 2015
82
30
8
The ask for me is:
With the new stykle M/C with my nasty 260CI engine a real "old men" style driving , Its dangerous to drive my car with the new m/c in conjuntion with my original proportioning valve , original lines, booster, caliper and rear drum brakes?
This thread has convert in a excellent explain about the brakes for me....thanks a lot to all.....!!!
Waldo

If you drive carefully and keep everything in good order, its probably OK. The problem is that if there are enough small changes for the worse and none for the better there can have a cumulative bad effect. One thing that you can change for the better is to upgrade your brake hoses to something stiffer than the stock rubber hoses to some kind of steel braid. That will be an improvement. Also, make a habit of bleeding your brakes and changing your brake fluid regularly. Most people only change the brake fluid when replacing a cylinder somewhere, but everything performs better and lasts longer if the brake fluid gets changed.

There are people who will do everything possible to make a car faster, but don't worry about improving the stock brakes much. It's great to have a fast car, but its critically important that it can stop.

Your are welcome. We are here to help. Sometimes we have differences of opinion about some things.
 

manualbrakes.com

Not-quite-so-new-guy
Feb 11, 2016
24
20
3
Malibudave, thanks for joining the discussion. To be positive, you had some good information. However, I disagree that 1/4" brake lines were stock in a late 70's car. Fred Puhn, a professional engineer wrote in my 1985 edition of his Brake Handbook that 3/16" tubing was used in "most" modern cars because it "stiffer, lighter, and easier to bend". (I would add that it is also cheaper for the auto makers to buy, and for a collector/restorer, it has less internal surface area to rust and damage the cups and seals.) Puhn noted that the 1/4" tubing is less restrictive of fluid flow, and less likely to get damaged in handling, but were only found on older vehicles. So the 1/4 lines might be useful for off-road vehicles where the lines might get kinked from rocks and debris, or they might be considered as a way to get more fluid to disk caliper cylinder in a modified system that needs more fluid than stock. Why would that be the case for rear drum wheel cylinders? That just doesn't make any sense. The one explanation that I can give is that the fitting nuts from the 1/4 tubing sold for fuel lines fit in the m/c port, so some DIYers saw a way to avoid reflaring a line. I redid all of the lines in a 75 Ford and they were all 3/16", as is every car I can remember. Puhn recommends 3/16" for the entire brake system, and I can see no good reason to change that.

Yes, well why is that since these were originally two different parts? Maybe a guy who has a website about brakes could get an answer from the reman companies and tell us what they are actually selling people, and what they do with the cores that are non-conforming to their intended design?

An opinion is like a belly-button. Everyone has one. A bigger problem is getting one reman caliper that is standard, and a second that is low drag. Most certainly, the traditional will grab first and the car will pull to that side in a hard brake. I had an experience around the time of that Bendix letter I gave the link for when the car did a 180 into the incoming lane avoiding a deer in the wee hours of the morning. Fortunately, there was no one else on the road, but I don't doubt that kind of thing was happening. Not checking the grooves might save money short term, but it would open them up to a nasty product liability class action lawsuit.

So, do you link the link with the Bendix letter is a fraud, or was Bendix wrong? What's your opinion on that? Here's that link again:
http://www.remaninc.com/pdfs/lowdragcalipers.pdf
Here's another link stating that the difference is between a 15 degree grove on the standard calipers and a 30 degree grove on the low drag calipers with diagrams for those who need a better visual:
http://www.idmsvcs.com/2vmod/brakesystem/hydraulic/disassembly/calipers/pdfs/mpbrakes_lowdrag.pdf
For your opinion to be correct, both of these links need to be wrong.

Well, since the reman companies and the vendors won't tell us, we really don't know what's inside the calipers. Since its possible to get the wrong ones for the m/c, or worse yet, a mismatched pair, it makes more sense to buy a new set. Raybestos still makes them new, no core needed, and listed as having "residual drag torque", which I assume is the original standard version:
http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=8467976&cc=2002800&jsn=455
If not, they should be at least a matching pair.
[Edit to note that a series of small changes to a hydraulic system can have a negative sum result, or could multiply small problems created by each.]

Thanks for stopping by Clutch. When you get a chance, how about peeking under the hood and tell us what size the brake lines are coming out of the m/c?

This link is correct.
http://www.remaninc.com/pdfs/lowdragcalipers.pdf
GM did start using LOW drag calipers in 1980, most likely the new front wheel drive plate forms. Low drag calipers and step bore master cylinders were not used on g-bodies until 1982. This is a fact.

I would also recommend 3/16" line for the entire brake system (if redoing your lines and using a different master cylinder), but that is not what GM did and it doesn't make any sense other than to keep assembly line workers from screwing in the fitting into the wrong master cylinder outlet. If the line fitting is 9/16-18, the line is a 1/4" in diameter or larger. The volume of fluid moved through the brake system is dictated by the bore and stroke of the master cylinder cylinder and not the size of the line.

In my opinion, because of my experience with working with people everyday on their brake systems and working with manufacturer parts, I have a hypothesis. My hypothesis is that the only thing that makes a metric caliper LOW drag is the seal. I may be incorrect, but from my experience and observations it seems to be true. It makes no sense to me why a reman company would mix and match castings with different seal grooves with a high potential of returns and liabilities. If a customer has a 1982-1997 vehicle that uses metric calipers (1982-1988 G-Body, 1982-1992 F-body, 1982-1997 S10 Trucks and SUVs) and they want to stay with the stock front brake system, I tell them to buy reman calipers so it will work with the strait bore master cylinder that is included in my manual brake conversion KITS.

The new Raybestos calipers PN FRC4125N and FRC4126N are new additions. Thanks for finding those. These are most likely the same caliper that AFCO sell for $49.99 (PN 663-5003 and 663-5004). I am not sure if they are LOW drag or NON low drag, but to work for all 1978-2003 vehicles, they need to be NON low drag, normal calipers.

Back to the wnagels' original post. "It is possible to remove the original master cylinder and put the most modern without change the brake lines, pipes or servo?" Yes.

Part number ACDELCO 18M974 or RAYBESTOS MC390572

Read this link. http://www.maliburacing.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=124945

Material Type:Aluminum
Number of Outlets:2
Primary Outlet Size:1/2"x20 (front brake line, rear port)
Secondary Outlet Size:9/16"x18 (rear brake line, front port)
Bore: 1.0"

wnagel, Is your brake lines in good condition and are not rusted through? If yes, please reuse them with the above master cylinder.
wnagel, Is your vacuum booster in good condition and functioning properly? If yes, please reuse them with the above master cylinder.
wnagel. Is your front calipers in good conditions and functioning properly with no leaks? If yes, reuse them with the above master cylinder.
wnagel, Is your wheel cylinders leaking? If no, reuse them with the above master cylinder.
wnagel, Are your rubber brake lines 40 years old? If yes, change them out after you install and test the above master cylinder.

I am a big believer in doing a single change to the brake system and then making sure that change is working correctly. I do not like the idea of making multiple changes to the brake system, finding a problem, and then not knowing which change made gave you the issue.
 
  • Like
  • Agree
Reactions: 1 users

wnagel

Greasemonkey
Jan 26, 2013
133
26
28
Santiago Of Chile.
If you drive carefully and keep everything in good order, its probably OK. The problem is that if there are enough small changes for the worse and none for the better there can have a cumulative bad effect. One thing that you can change for the better is to upgrade your brake hoses to something stiffer than the stock rubber hoses to some kind of steel braid.


The last week I take my original hose , (front and rear), and I go to the m arket to change the rubber and put something better, but the worker broken the bronce terminal from one hose , here not exist other option than import from EEUU a new rubber front and rear hose....not lucky for me but ....well.....I can take a AC Delco hose from rockauto and I think is than better from "Chilean hose".


Also, make a habit of bleeding your brakes and changing your brake fluid regularly. Most people only change the brake fluid when replacing a cylinder somewhere, but everything performs better and lasts longer if the brake fluid gets changed.

I`m sure this is a real good habit.....in my chevy Nova 77 2 door I bleedeng my brake one time a year.


There are people who will do everything possible to make a car faster, but don't worry about improving the stock brakes much. It's great to have a fast car, but its critically important that it can stop.

Here in Chile is the same , a lot of people put a big engine, big carburetor or nitro inclusive and never put money in suspenssion, brakes, ball joints ...etc......I think this kind of people take a lot of beer and his mine only think some kind of stupid world......:)
 

Clutch

Geezer
Apr 7, 2017
5,189
10,913
113
Brick NJ
Yea like I said I put used lines in mine for a factory look. By the way all 4 of my Cutlasses have the same setup 2 79s the 78 and the 87 all the same thing so if you don't want to make lines go to a junk yard and get them off of any G-BODY and put them in your car I'll see if I have a pic View attachment 73603 them on the 87 Cutlass so I'd say 78-87 is all like that and no I didn't change them all just the 78 witch was actually made in mid 1977
Really you disagree well when you stop reading on line get out of your mom's basement and actually work on a car you'll get some real world experience troll
 
  • Agree
Reactions: 1 user

pontiacgp

blank
Mar 31, 2006
29,270
20,413
113
Kitchener, Ontario
Assuming for the sake of argument that you are correct and the front wheels will never lock up with regular front disk brakes, it really depends on road conditions. It could on an icy road. Even on a dry road, it doesn't help anything. They developed anti-lock brake systems for a reason. For the lawyers, something doesn't need to be the sole cause of the accident. All it needs to do is contribute to the problem. That's it.

I never said the front wheels won't lock up, I said the front brakes will not cause a car to spin. Even on an icy road the front end pushes when you apply the brakes. You claimed that one caliper grabbing first turned your car 180. Tires will not grip enough to make the car pivot on a front tire. It is the back end that turns the car around and many times that is from a driver's error. Here is what happens to a G body when one front wheel locks up and this is with a performance tire that is pretty sticky..

skid.jpg
 
  • Disagree
  • Agree
Reactions: 1 users

wnagel

Greasemonkey
Jan 26, 2013
133
26
28
Santiago Of Chile.
Well, I know I can use the new M/C, about the Monte Cristo speech , I think...in the future maybe is more safe or better performance if I try to find a malibu 81+ and take the caliper an use in my car, but this caliper fit in my cutlass?, by the way, I know where is a cutsom cruiser 1983.....maybe this caliper is an option for me...

Dont`fight children!!!!! :banana:

Waldo.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

pontiacgp

blank
Mar 31, 2006
29,270
20,413
113
Kitchener, Ontario
can you not get rebuilt caliper?. They are not expensive here but I'm not sure about in your country.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Status
Not open for further replies.

GBodyForum is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to amazon.com. Amazon, the Amazon logo, AmazonSupply, and the AmazonSupply logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.

Please support GBodyForum Sponsors

Classic Truck Consoles Dixie Restoration Depot UMI Performance

Contact [email protected] for info on becoming a sponsor