300hp 307

scoti

Royal Smart Person
Sep 5, 2019
1,979
3,404
113
Texas
In the last 8 pages we've covered a lot and gone nowhere. OP hasn't been around in over a month.

As for Maryland G-man's project, if you're chasing pristine originality points, I wouldn't lift a finger. If you want to fool 97% of the people 100% of the time, corporate black paint on an otherwise stock 350 or 403. If you really want to let your 307 freak flag fly, pull the numbers matching original and store it in the corner. Then build another 307 based stroker with a roller conversion and aim to maximize low-mid RPM torque. It's an Oldsmobile -- forget all about HP.
This is what I basically typed earlier but deleted it because I figured it would fall on deaf ears.

I'd pluck the 307 as-is & 'restore' it to like new so it looks pretty on an engine stand. Under the hood? I'd put an 'impersonator' motor in that as you mentioned 97% of the general public wouldn't have a clue it's not the OE motor. Easier to build for the mild power requirements for sure & the OE/number matching motor is close by for the 'investment' purposes.
 
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Oct 14, 2008
8,826
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Melville,Saskatchewan
As far as the 307 Quadrajet, it is easy to add idle bypass air. The better calibration on that carb seems to work fine with 350, 403 and some have even used it with the 455. The Vin Y conversions don't run near as nice. The timing curve us very aggressive, even worse on later swirl port motors. I believe the 84 is mid to high 50's, swirl port Vin 9 are low 60's! I honestly would get the factory 5A heads reworked. Dale Robinson actually shrunk the ports on the 5A heads on his 450 HP 307, just moved them around with porting and epoxy.
 

Maryland G-man

Not-quite-so-new-guy
Supporting Member
May 12, 2023
26
28
13
Folks,

I REALLY appreciate the valuable (and spirited) technical advice folks are giving me. Here is some data, which might help explain why I insist on taking my chosen path of keeping the factory 307:

  • Bought this 1984 Hurst/Olds in May 2023 for $ 28,000. It is an "Unrestored Original". Almost all factory-installed parts, besides tires, brake pads, belts, etc. It has a March, 1984 Build Date, which apparently was the end of the Hurst/Olds run at GM.
  • Have already put in $ 7,500 for Service, to just replace worn or aged parts.
  • I also invested $ 3,000 in upgrades (UMI chassis braces, Aluminum Driveshaft, Bilstein shocks, etc.)
  • So, close to $ 40k for the car, thus far.
Now, here is the preferred sequence for performance upgrades:

  1. Brakes always first. I have thoroughly researched Wilwood, Baer, and other brake companies. If I want to keep the beautiful chrome Olds Super Stock II 15 inch wheels, there are many limits and constraints on what can be done (sawing off Spindles, widening front track, etc.).
  2. Suspension: the front and rear suspension really would benefit from upgrades (Coil-overs, larger anti-sway bars, Polyurethane bushing Control Arms, etc.). These improve handling, but hurt the ride quality.
  3. Then Frame Stiffeners. Not the small UMI braces I have bolted-on, but rather full length, weld-on chassis stiffening.
  4. Now, only at this juncture are we truly ready to handle lots of extra horsepower and torque. I just blew through about $ 20,000 just to do #1 - #3 above, on a '71 Duster, not counting $ 10k to build (or replace) the 307.
  5. So, IF after doing all of the above, I would have about $ 70k into a car that would still be outperformed by a ~ two decade old Camaro, Firebird, GTO, Mustang, or Challenger.
Please take a look at these attachments:
  • Recent Oil Analysis on the 307 in this car. At 64,000 miles, it barely burns any oil, leaves no blue smoke, starts easily in cold weather, idles well, gives good power up to redline, and decent gas mileage.
  • Mondello Oldsmobile technical manual. It is a superb book; I have a copy. See hyperlink below to get one.
  • Mondello document on modifying the Olds 403 (which was used on GMC Motorhomes).
The reason that I am bringing up Mondello is that I visited their facility, spoke with their Engine Builder face to face, and he was highly confident that the 307 could be built with "low-to-mid 200's" horsepower with all of my OEM constraints (Olds Air Cleaner, Air Pump, Exhaust Manifolds, Catalytic Converter, etc.). While the Mondelllo company doesn't get quite the rave reviews when Joe Mondello was running things there, they still have a decent operation. You probably count the number of dedicated Oldsmobile engine builders on Planet Earth with one hand, and have fingers leftover.

As for comparing the 403 to the 307, the large bore and narrow piston-to-piston spacing of the 403 means the cylinders are "Siamesed", such that there is no coolant flowing there between cylinders...yikes!

To restate my objective: I am DETERMINED to avoid the dreaded N.O.M. (Non-Original Motor) derogatory label, and maintain the coveted "Numbers Matching" status. Also, if you overly modify the original engine, which often means you just preserve the Engine Block itself, does it even matter that it is "numbers matching" anyway? And in light of the good "grades" the engine just got from the oil analysis, I might just upgrade the externals (performance re-build of the Carburetor, and Extrusion Hone the Exhaust Manifolds, and OEM Aluminum Intake Manifold), and wait until the engine hits 100,000 miles, and THEN reconsider what level of build will be done on the engine.

 

Attachments

  • Olds 307 Engine Oil Analysis.pdf
    85.9 KB · Views: 38
  • Mondello Tech Ref Manual.jpg
    Mondello Tech Ref Manual.jpg
    850.9 KB · Views: 19
  • Mondello GMC Motorhome Engines.pdf
    3.7 MB · Views: 37
Oct 14, 2008
8,826
7,779
113
Melville,Saskatchewan
I get it, these cars are much more valuable then a few years ago. Honestly even the aluminum heads will ruin the stock look, their is argument their runners are too big for a 350, let alone a 307. A 307 stroker would be much less under square than a 68-69 400, would need custom pistons, uses sbc rods and balances easily. Not 5 slugs like my 330 crank, $$$! Also weighing the same while much stronger and stiffer than the 330 crank. An easy 300+HP and 400+T, 365 TO 370 CI with worked over 5A heads with the right compression and cam on the computer. Not cheap at all but can work with the stock shift points. The 403 can run hot, the 350's almost never do and with the 68-69 5A heads will 99% of the observers. With the same computer friendly cam and compression stroked, 422 to 428CI 400+HP and 500+ TQ.
 
Last edited:

DRIVEN

Geezer
Apr 25, 2009
8,075
14,536
113
*CENSORED*
You mean like an original kustom numbers-matching protouring survivor restomod? Gotcha.
 
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88hurstolds

Royal Smart Person
Jun 24, 2008
1,747
658
113
Regarding the Oldsmobile 307 and horsepower, earlier this year I visited with the good folks at Mondello Performance in California. The 307 can easily achieve the magical threshold of 1 hp per cubic inch, with the following:
'Good Folks' is laughable, Lynn ran Joe's name into the ground and ripped off countless people.
I think Lynn is dead now, he'll rot in hell after all the people he screwed, testimonials are littered all over the Olds Forums.
I wouldn't give any one a penny at that place... I met a guy at the Parts Place show a couple years and he mentioned he just sent Lynn a check for $10k, after myself and several other Olds enthusiasts enlightened him of "Mondello Performance" he was on the phone with his bank and his wife doing a stop payment on that check.
Bernard Mondello, Joe's son, has his own outfit in CA too but he focuses on doing heads.
 
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88hurstolds

Royal Smart Person
Jun 24, 2008
1,747
658
113
This topic comes up quite often and there's been a good answer for it for the past 25 years here:

As for anything Mondello... RUN, don't even soil your mind with any BS from Mondello Performance in Pesos Robles, CA, they ripped off countless and have no relation to Joe or Bernard Mondello.
Unless it comes from any written article by Joe Mondello himself or Bernard, it's all BS.
 
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Texas82GP

Just-a-worm
Apr 3, 2015
7,989
18,697
113
Spring, Texas
Folks,

I REALLY appreciate the valuable (and spirited) technical advice folks are giving me. Here is some data, which might help explain why I insist on taking my chosen path of keeping the factory 307:

  • Bought this 1984 Hurst/Olds in May 2023 for $ 28,000. It is an "Unrestored Original". Almost all factory-installed parts, besides tires, brake pads, belts, etc. It has a March, 1984 Build Date, which apparently was the end of the Hurst/Olds run at GM.
  • Have already put in $ 7,500 for Service, to just replace worn or aged parts.
  • I also invested $ 3,000 in upgrades (UMI chassis braces, Aluminum Driveshaft, Bilstein shocks, etc.)
  • So, close to $ 40k for the car, thus far.
Now, here is the preferred sequence for performance upgrades:

  1. Brakes always first. I have thoroughly researched Wilwood, Baer, and other brake companies. If I want to keep the beautiful chrome Olds Super Stock II 15 inch wheels, there are many limits and constraints on what can be done (sawing off Spindles, widening front track, etc.).
  2. Suspension: the front and rear suspension really would benefit from upgrades (Coil-overs, larger anti-sway bars, Polyurethane bushing Control Arms, etc.). These improve handling, but hurt the ride quality.
  3. Then Frame Stiffeners. Not the small UMI braces I have bolted-on, but rather full length, weld-on chassis stiffening.
  4. Now, only at this juncture are we truly ready to handle lots of extra horsepower and torque. I just blew through about $ 20,000 just to do #1 - #3 above, on a '71 Duster, not counting $ 10k to build (or replace) the 307.
  5. So, IF after doing all of the above, I would have about $ 70k into a car that would still be outperformed by a ~ two decade old Camaro, Firebird, GTO, Mustang, or Challenger.
Please take a look at these attachments:
  • Recent Oil Analysis on the 307 in this car. At 64,000 miles, it barely burns any oil, leaves no blue smoke, starts easily in cold weather, idles well, gives good power up to redline, and decent gas mileage.
  • Mondello Oldsmobile technical manual. It is a superb book; I have a copy. See hyperlink below to get one.
  • Mondello document on modifying the Olds 403 (which was used on GMC Motorhomes).
The reason that I am bringing up Mondello is that I visited their facility, spoke with their Engine Builder face to face, and he was highly confident that the 307 could be built with "low-to-mid 200's" horsepower with all of my OEM constraints (Olds Air Cleaner, Air Pump, Exhaust Manifolds, Catalytic Converter, etc.). While the Mondelllo company doesn't get quite the rave reviews when Joe Mondello was running things there, they still have a decent operation. You probably count the number of dedicated Oldsmobile engine builders on Planet Earth with one hand, and have fingers leftover.

As for comparing the 403 to the 307, the large bore and narrow piston-to-piston spacing of the 403 means the cylinders are "Siamesed", such that there is no coolant flowing there between cylinders...yikes!

To restate my objective: I am DETERMINED to avoid the dreaded N.O.M. (Non-Original Motor) derogatory label, and maintain the coveted "Numbers Matching" status. Also, if you overly modify the original engine, which often means you just preserve the Engine Block itself, does it even matter that it is "numbers matching" anyway? And in light of the good "grades" the engine just got from the oil analysis, I might just upgrade the externals (performance re-build of the Carburetor, and Extrusion Hone the Exhaust Manifolds, and OEM Aluminum Intake Manifold), and wait until the engine hits 100,000 miles, and THEN reconsider what level of build will be done on the engine.

It's your car, so obviously do with it what you want but my perspective is either modify it or don't. It's either original or it's not. I don't understand why it's ok to put aftermarket suspension and brakes on it but the engine has to look original and has to be the original 307.🤔
 
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