87 Cutlass Salon 307 wont idle....

[Clone TIE Pilot]

Ok, got home from work, tinkered....Still no answers. Distributor is ok not loose. I cannot find any vacumm leaks. Went ahead put a new fuel filter in the carb, no effect. Got mad.......Took the top of the carb off, checked inside to see if it was gummed up, full of trash, Nope. Made sure float still floats-it does.Put back together, no effect.Got madder, pulled plugs, they all look alike-kinda a whitish-orangeish color(not carboned up)......

Heres what i do know - once you get it started(and its not hard to start turns over nice and sloothly like always), if you work the choke butterfly you can keep it running that way. OR if you hold the main throttle and try to maintain a low RPM, she just seems like shes missing like crazy, but it smoothes out when you rev it up some( +1500 RPM). I did notice that if your behind the car, its very rich(eyes watering). It was the other day too.

Im starting to wonder if its ignition related.....cap and rotor still look new(replaced maybe 4-5 years ago along with plugs and wires)and like i said shes lucky to get maybe 500 miles a year.

I do know it has the 7 pin ign module, looked at it(seems like the original). Would the module or the pickup give this effect? maybe weak coil?

When taking the airhorn off, you need to careful reinstalling it by using a putty knife to keep the TPS depressed so itsn't damaged.

Without a dwell meter you are working blind and deaf with these cars. You hook the meter up to the green diagnostic plug than normally isn't plugged into anything. If the dwell is rich, you got a lean problem, if the dwell is lean you got a rich problem.

Sounds like the car is running lean as a lean exhaust has a much more powerful smell than a rich exhaust. Vacuum leaks tend to lean out idle more than mid or higher throttle, which explains your weak idle but runs ok above 1,500 RPM which is when you are getting off the idle system. Intake gaskets could be leaking, the carb gaskets could be leaking, worn throttle plate shaft could be leaking, or even an incorrect spec PCV valve. Nobody can really help you until you tell us the dwell reading.

 

[Raven87]

When taking the airhorn off, you need to careful reinstalling it by using a putty knife to keep the TPS depressed so itsn't damaged.

Without a dwell meter you are working blind and deaf with these cars. You hook the meter up to the green diagnostic plug than normally isn't plugged into anything. If the dwell is rich, you got a lean problem, if the dwell is lean you got a rich problem.

Sounds like the car is running lean as a lean exhaust has a much more powerful smell than a rich exhaust. Vacuum leaks tend to lean out idle more than mid or higher throttle, which explains your weak idle but runs ok above 1,500 RPM which is when you are getting off the idle system. Intake gaskets could be leaking, the carb gaskets could be leaking, worn throttle plate shaft could be leaking, or even an incorrect spec PCV valve. Nobody can really help you until you tell us the dwell reading.

I knew about the TPS trick (thanks for reminding me though). I just used the corner of a putty knife to keep her down till i got the airhorn back on with a couple of screws in it, then slide it out. Im starting to think she is lean like you guys say. Shell knock you out if your behind her, its not a black smoke kind of thing. Im going to see if i can borrow a dwell meter, so i can see what it says. Im going to try a few things and see if they work to. A buddy told me to get some carb cleaner(the kind thats flammable) and spray around the intake and carb and vacuum lines, see if shell run that way. I am going to get the dwell meter though.....ill keep you posted.

 

[autonaut]

It's pulling in fake air..

Try to "choke" the carb with your hands when idling. If the idke improves when you try and block for the air it's running lean. Have you checked your booster for your brakes? It's easy to do so. Turn the car off. What for 30 seconds and see if the pedal gets help still or have become hard.

Im betting it's a vacuum problem somewhere.

 

[pontiacgp]

No, i dont own a dwell meter. How would you check , i may be able to borrow one.

I would be checking that before I did anything else

 

[Raven87]

It's pulling in fake air..

Try to "choke" the carb with your hands when idling. If the idke improves when you try and block for the air it's running lean. Have you checked your booster for your brakes? It's easy to do so. Turn the car off. What for 30 seconds and see if the pedal gets help still or have become hard.

Im betting it's a vacuum problem somewhere.

I can choke it with my hand and shell smooth out, or i can manually use the choke butterfly(on top).

And i do appreciate you guys feedback on this, im not great with these carb cars. Im 34 and didnt grow up tuning them. I love my Cutlass and jsut try to maintain her the best i can.

 

[Clone TIE Pilot]

I knew about the TPS trick (thanks for reminding me though). I just used the corner of a putty knife to keep her down till i got the airhorn back on with a couple of screws in it, then slide it out. Im starting to think she is lean like you guys say. Shell knock you out if your behind her, its not a black smoke kind of thing. Im going to see if i can borrow a dwell meter, so i can see what it says. Im going to try a few things and see if they work to. A buddy told me to get some carb cleaner(the kind thats flammable) and spray around the intake and carb and vacuum lines, see if shell run that way. I am going to get the dwell meter though.....ill keep you posted.

It's best to use the carb cleaner trick with the dwell meter hooked up, when you hit the vacuum leak with the cleaner the ECM will change the dwell for a second. Dwell meters are just $20 and are a required tool for working on older cars. Also while the vacuum lines could be ok, one of the various vacuum motors could be leaking, need a Mityvac to test those.

 

[Raven87]

It's best to use the carb cleaner trick with the dwell meter hooked up, when you hit the vacuum leak with the cleaner the ECM will change the dwell for a second. Dwell meters are just $20 and are a required tool for working on older cars. Also while the vacuum lines could be ok, one of the various vacuum motors could be leaking, need a Mityvac to test those.

Im going to ask a stupid question, i thought dwell meters were for the old point type distributors?

 

[Clone TIE Pilot]

Im going to ask a stupid question, i thought dwell meters were for the old point type distributors?

Originally they were, however, GM designed the CCC system so you could use one to see the air/fuel mixture control solenoid dwell. The CCC was designed so old school mechanics of the day could easily learn how to work on them with mostly tools they already had. When reading the M/C solenoid dwell for a CCC car, always use the 6 cylinder scale no matter how many cylinders the engine has. The off position is rich and the on position is lean.

 

[pontiacgp]

I never heard of GM designing anything so old school mechanics could use old tools on it... Here is a good article on the feedback carb

http://www.autozone.com/repairguide...mmand-Control-CCC-System/_/P-0996b43f80393884

 

[pencero]

did you ever figure it out? I was curious what happened in this case. When my car was acting like that it was the intake manifold going bad, then next thing that went out was the fuel pump. The car will still run several times w/ the fuel pump going bad before it finally doesn't work anymore.