cadillac 472 re/build, phase 3: doing stuff

[G_Body_Enthusiast]

Re: cadillac 472 re/build, phase 1: the autopsy

it still had the original timing set with the nylon teeth on the gears, no teeth were missing and wear looked good surprisingly but i had already planned on a good timing set. i'm budget oriented when it comes to my car but i spend extra for better parts i know that will do a better job than something cheaper. cheap timing sets are for people who like taking their engines apart more often than necessary.

i had already considered getting some brackets off a 425 as they apparently had a belt set up that didnt use an air pump eliminating the need for one to turn the water pump. i didnt know about the 368 ac bracket though. i already have an R4 compressor that hasnt been used so thats one less thing i'll need to get later. the PS pump bracket is aluminum and i cleaned it yesterday and it looks nice, it needs a repaint and it's ready to go. since i'm waiting on more money for machine work and parts i'm working on minor crap and prepping everything else in the mean time.

i have an idea of what i want just not a detailed plan on how to make it happen yet. i am thinking of using an OD transmission like the 2004r. it's perfect for my application and a 3.42 gear would work well with both the acceleration and final drive ratios respectively. 9.37 (2.74 1st gear x 3.42) and 2.49 (.67 x 3.42) in final drive, very good numbers for a daily driver. i really dislike 3 speed autos, they limit gear choices because gas prices are not going to go down, only up. in theory with the #10 cam the car could go up to 150 MPH as the cams operating rpm goes up to 4800 RPM and a 28" tall tire would give you about 4500 rpm at 150 MPH. making it a fast car that pulls hard all the way to 150-160 MPH. sounds good right? sounds like fun to me.

i'll also be using 17 x 8 wheels ditching the puny 14" wheels. so the tires will have a bigger footprint than they do now. s-10 springs might be a good upgrade to do with this, my springs are old and while they still work it's only a matter of time before the extra weight of the engine wears them out faster. i'll change shocks at the same time since they need to be taken out to replace the springs.

 

[online170]

Re: cadillac 472 re/build, phase 1: the autopsy

Online 170 is a knowledgeable Cadillac gbody builder.

Haha, I dont know about that! I still havent finished yet....

... since i'm waiting on more money for machine work and parts i'm working on minor crap and prepping everything else in the mean time.

Famous last words... This is how all home-head-porting jobs start. 🙂 Becareful if youre gonna fall into that trap. The caddy castings wear you out in short order.

i have an idea of what i want just not a detailed plan on how to make it happen yet.

I have learned this lesson many times over (although I clearly have never applied it). Plan everything before spending a penny, AND the plan MUST be created after the block is stripped, cleaned and crack tested. Otherwise you get into "what if's". Once you know what kind of condition everything is in, you can make more informed decisions. Its always so easy to get carried away with "more" and "better".

i am thinking of using an OD transmission like the 2004r. it's perfect for my application and a 3.42 gear would work well with both the acceleration and final drive ratios respectively. 9.37 (2.74 1st gear x 3.42) and 2.49 (.67 x 3.42) in final drive, very good numbers for a daily driver. i really dislike 3 speed autos, they limit gear choices because gas prices are not going to go down, only up.

Everyone who has never tried this will tell you thats a TERRIBLE idea! Me included 🙂. There is a guy on V8 buick with about 650 ft/lbs of torque running a 700R4. However he ONLY drives it on the street, and it is built up to the nines. Its been in there for about 8 years. You could probably get it built to handle what youre after but it wont be cheap. Much easier to go with a Th400/TH350 and a short rear gear like a 2.73 or 2.56. Dont ever use slicks.

in theory with the #10 cam the car could go up to 150 MPH as the cams operating rpm goes up to 4800 RPM and a 28" tall tire would give you about 4500 rpm at 150 MPH. making it a fast car that pulls hard all the way to 150-160 MPH. sounds good right? sounds like fun to me.

I dont think the #10 cam is right for what you want. In my opinion, the #10 is the "Medium" sized pizza, that costs almost as much as a large, and isnt that much bigger than a small. You would never go for it without a sale/deal, you go large or small, it just makes sense.

If youre after fuel economy, go for a #3 or #5. I dont think anyone sells a "stock" cam for these engines anymore, youd either have to find a used one, or have it ground to your specs. Everything you can get is "better". Just to confuse you somemore, I was SHOCKED how these engines handle big cams (with ease). My car had a #15 and a 3500 stall converter. Just from driving it, it felt like it had a mild cam (I would have guessed the #5) and a factory stall converter. There was no shortage of torque anywhere, from idle to 5200rpm, there was no dead spots, and it wanted to rev to the moon. The PERFECT power band.

So, if youre gonna go for the #10, why not the #15? Look at the specs, its very very similar... (P.S. the specs on their website arent accurate. If you want numbers, call MTS, and he'll give them to you). Forget fuel mileage at that point though.

Also a custom ground camshaft is about $30 more than a regular one. It would be highly worth while to get a custom cam spec (from someone other than MTS) and order a custom ground cam from MTS. MTS has profiles specific to CADILLAC, where as someone like COMP has generic profiles, mostly suited to chevys/fords. MTS is now getting cams done by Lunati. A custom cam would do everything you want it to.

Furthermore, depending on how efficient you want to get, you will never beat a roller cam. It ramps quicker, has a larger power band, and can support way more power (Lift, and quick ramp = area under curve). Efficiency follows close behind.

 

[G_Body_Enthusiast]

Re: cadillac 472 re/build, phase 1: the autopsy

... since i'm waiting on more money for machine work and parts i'm working on minor crap and prepping everything else in the mean time.

Famous last words... This is how all home-head-porting jobs start. 🙂 Becareful if youre gonna fall into that trap. The caddy castings wear you out in short order.

i'm only talking about cleaning up and repainting the brackets, exhaust manifolds, that sort of thing. i havent ported a set of heads before and i'm not about to get creative and try it out now. this engine is being built to last a very long time, i want longevity vs lots of power. the engine is powerful enough at 1970 500 CID power level any more is overkill. because i want it to run a long time i'm going to take my time with it and make sure i get it put together correctly. i'm not porting heads or anything else i dont know how to do. i just get kind of OCD with things bolted to the engine and putting dirty greasy parts on a freshly built long block annoys me to no end. the very idea disturbs me. i'm hoping during the winter to have the block cleaned and have it ready for parts come spring and then start putting it together next year.

i have an idea of what i want just not a detailed plan on how to make it happen yet.

I have learned this lesson many times over (although I clearly have never applied it). Plan everything before spending a penny, AND the plan MUST be created after the block is stripped, cleaned and crack tested. Otherwise you get into "what if's". Once you know what kind of condition everything is in, you can make more informed decisions. Its always so easy to get carried away with "more" and "better".

i hadnt planned on spending money before i know what i need. i've been wanting a cadillac engine for years, ever since i saw one in a g-body way back when i had mine for about 2-3 years at the time. so to get one is kind of surreal for me and i dont want to mess it up. right now i have time to read and learn before making a decision and that will happen well before i crack open my wallet to put my plans into motion. i do want smaller chamber heads, i MAY change over to a 500 crank if i can find one for a good price and use 500 pistons and make it a 500. otherwise i'll stick with 472 but still get smaller chamber heads.

i am thinking of using an OD transmission like the 2004r. it's perfect for my application and a 3.42 gear would work well with both the acceleration and final drive ratios respectively. 9.37 (2.74 1st gear x 3.42) and 2.49 (.67 x 3.42) in final drive, very good numbers for a daily driver. i really dislike 3 speed autos, they limit gear choices because gas prices are not going to go down, only up.

Everyone who has never tried this will tell you thats a TERRIBLE idea! Me included 🙂. There is a guy on V8 buick with about 650 ft/lbs of torque running a 700R4. However he ONLY drives it on the street, and it is built up to the nines. Its been in there for about 8 years. You could probably get it built to handle what youre after but it wont be cheap. Much easier to go with a Th400/TH350 and a short rear gear like a 2.73 or 2.56. Dont ever use slicks.

i'm only wanting 500-550 lbs ft of torque, not so much i can kickstart a planet with it. i have a th-350 in the car now, i have the th-400 that came with the engine and i will do one or both but at some point i want OD. i want torque but not so much that an OD transmission cant handle it. i could use a 4L80E but it needs a controller but might be a more viable option given it is a 4 speed auto and used in heavy applications. my gear is 2.41 right now and i dont like it and i dont think it will do as well as a 2.73 so i'm wanting a different gear and since i'm wanting a different gear i might as well get one that makes it all worth my time and money. so a 3.42 gear and the 4L80E would be a good match, i'd get OD and it'd be able to handle the engine fine.

in theory with the #10 cam the car could go up to 150 MPH as the cams operating rpm goes up to 4800 RPM and a 28" tall tire would give you about 4500 rpm at 150 MPH. making it a fast car that pulls hard all the way to 150-160 MPH. sounds good right? sounds like fun to me.

I dont think the #10 cam is right for what you want. In my opinion, the #10 is the "Medium" sized pizza, that costs almost as much as a large, and isnt that much bigger than a small. You would never go for it without a sale/deal, you go large or small, it just makes sense.

If youre after fuel economy, go for a #3 or #5. I dont think anyone sells a "stock" cam for these engines anymore, youd either have to find a used one, or have it ground to your specs. Everything you can get is "better". Just to confuse you somemore, I was SHOCKED how these engines handle big cams (with ease). My car had a #15 and a 3500 stall converter. Just from driving it, it felt like it had a mild cam (I would have guessed the #5) and a factory stall converter. There was no shortage of torque anywhere, from idle to 5200rpm, there was no dead spots, and it wanted to rev to the moon. The PERFECT power band.

So, if youre gonna go for the #10, why not the #15? Look at the specs, its very very similar... (P.S. the specs on their website arent accurate. If you want numbers, call MTS, and he'll give them to you). Forget fuel mileage at that point though.

Also a custom ground camshaft is about $30 more than a regular one. It would be highly worth while to get a custom cam spec (from someone other than MTS) and order a custom ground cam from MTS. MTS has profiles specific to CADILLAC, where as someone like COMP has generic profiles, mostly suited to chevys/fords. MTS is now getting cams done by Lunati. A custom cam would do everything you want it to.

Furthermore, depending on how efficient you want to get, you will never beat a roller cam. It ramps quicker, has a larger power band, and can support way more power (Lift, and quick ramp = area under curve). Efficiency follows close behind.

i'll go with either the 3 or 5, it's just a daily driver. i have thought about it but i still dont know how to pick a good profile for a custom grind. how much more is a roller cam and what needs to be done to make it work?

 

[online170]

Re: cadillac 472 re/build, phase 1: the autopsy

Do you plan on getting any machining done? Crank grind, line hone, decking, boring, etc.....

The oil clearances are somewhat on the tight side. The rule of thumb should be 0.001" clearance per Inch of diameter of shaft. The 3.25" crankshaft should have about 0.0032" of clearance then. Factory spec is 0.0006" (Thats 0.6 Thou) to 0.0025". Kind of on the tight side. If you want to mess with this (line hone), DO NOT CUT THE CAPS, just open up the line hone to the max side of the spec, and polish the crank, and be on your way. This will put you right where you need to be for good clearance.

Balancing the rotating ASSY could also increase longgevity, but dont bother with factory rods and pistons. Too much risk to disassemble them to get a bob-weight.

Custom grind cams, im no expert either. I picked up the phone, and said im looking for a custom grind. I told them EXACTLY what i wanted the car to do, and I had to be dead honest about it. Basically im building a max-effort street motor with 95% street duty... You tell them something like that, and if you want the cam to do something, you also tell them that. ie: I want all the torque at the lowest revs possible. Or I want a bit of a lope. Or I want efficiency, etc etc....



Then they will ask you a million questions.
1) Car weight
2) Transmission
3) Rear end.
4) etc etc etc...

Answer all these questions as accurately as possible, call back if you have to, and they will come up with a spec for you. Lift numbers, duration, open and closing events, etc... Basically a full cam card.


Take that card to MTS and have them grind one for you. If you are doing a custom cam, you may want to have your torque converter picked out before hand. You will see an equal amount of gain and efficiency out a custom torque converter also. Same deal, its not that much more than an "off the shelf" item. Tell MTS you want a custom cam, and you have a spec. But also tell him what you want the car to do, I believe he has a couple different variations (profiles) for each cam, and tries to match it to what you want.


Roller cam, figure about $1200. I think its like $800-$900 for the core, plus lifters, grinding, etc.. If you go with a roller cam, you will also need roller lifters, the factory lifters wont work, too weak. Same goes for valvesprings. So in the end, a roller cam will cost about $2200. Other than the parts you buy, you dont need to do anything excotic to make it work. Its a "direct replacement" in that respect. Just the rest of your valvetrain needs to be up to the task.

I have a gearvendors overdrive, and as soon as I got it someone told me about the 4L80E. I wish I had gone that route. Its the EXACT same gear ration. BUT you will never beat the fact that the 4L80E has LOCKUP! Thats a huge plus in heat control and efficiency.

If you can tolerate a full manual shift-kit, you wont need to worry about controllers and sensors on the 4L80E. You could probably build one of these to the nines with about $1500.








I think maybe a custom grind conventional cam, a line hone, crank polish, and re-bearing is all you could ever want to make it live. Maybe a crank balance, but again its not practical to do with used parts.

Its gonna make a ton of power no matter what you do.

 

[dogsht]

Re: cadillac 472 re/build, phase 1: the autopsy

I did the 200-4R & it worked great for my goals. Abused it for 9,000 miles. But the th400 & 3.08 is a good budget compromise for a street car. You just can't get the best of both 1/4 mile acceleration AND low rpm motor saving cruising/mpg OR the benefits of the lock up converter that you can get with the 200-4R. Well worth it to me even on a modest budget but I understand the benefits & routinely drove the car on the hwy. To do over & knowing what a well built 200-4R can do and a 700-R4 and a 4l80E for this application I would definitely do the 200-4R again. It is the most efficient/effective, easiest & cost effective route.

Here is my advise if & when you go 200-4R.

1. Choose a builder with a successful track record of building high output use 200-4Rs. Shipping and an outfit that stands behind their products & warranties it trumps tying to collect on a failed build from a local guy.

2. Assuming minimum MTS-10 or equivalent. (I did MTS custom that would be an MTS-12 if they marketed such a thing) Get a 3,000 stall lock up converter. The factory "D5" built up with anti-ballooning, furnace brazed yada yada was only $300. You won't even know you have a high stall converter until you drop the hammer. Better high dollar converters are better but may not fit your budget or needs. IMO this stall would still work well with even an MTS-15. A higher stall might buy a lil 60 foot at the track with a torque peak launch but at twice the cost.

3. Get the optional billet forward drum. 500 foot pounds will break the factory unit with enough traction & launches. Here is who I used; http://extremeautomatics.com/transmissions/2004r.html and http://extremeautomatics.com/whattransd ... level.html You will want to get a lock up switch to automatically & optionally manually lock up & unlock the converter. The automatic unlock is usually wired to the brake switch so that when you put your foot on the brake the converter unlocks. Different ways of doing it some transmission vendors sell universal kits. A lot of people like the one bowtie overdrives sells.

I used both a 3.42 with a 28" tire and a 3.73 with a 29" tire. My plan & goal with the the 3.73/29 was to notch the frame rail and run a 295/65/15 drag radial for killer street traction and to hit the eyes at 115 mph at 5,000 rpms in 3rd. My trans was set to shift WOT at 5,200 and my cam hit max HP at about 4,900. With the 3.42/28 I did have a run to about 140 mph still pulling good but the OD is TALL. If you are racing you better have it done by the time you hit overdrive. An aerodynamic high speed geared sports car will catch you after you eventually overtake you after you hit OD. I additionally used a large cheap transmission cooler & an inexpensive transmission temp gauge to know where I was at and protect my investment.

I used 15x7 & widened 15x8 442 ralleys with 235/60/15 & 275/60/15 M and H drag radials in back. Loved the tires. I would use them again. You would have to hunt for good pricing though. Their biggest volume dealer gives good pricing and I have seen good group forum purchase pricing so don't be deterred by there website pricing. To do it again I would do 18x7 & 18x8 with a 245/45/18 & a 275/45/18 drag radial. On the street especially, traction is king. These wear well for a DR and work if you do hit some rain. The 275/45/18 is the exact same height & section width as the 275/60/15 that I ran. http://www.mandhtires.com/M-H-Drag-Radi ... FkqGI1lSmA

Springs, inexpensive Moog 5660 or 5662 for a nice riding handling driver http://jeffd.50megs.com/Moog_Spring_Page.htm
Shocks either Bilstein or Edelbrock ISA again for a firm compliant driver. By comparison cheap shocks SUCK.
Get Poly end links they are cheap and everywhere. Another cheap effective mod if still available is a 36mm hollow front sway bar for an early 90s F body. Its a bolt in. Put it with the available factory rear sway bar. These four are big improvements without big money.

 

[Mike P]

Re: cadillac 472 re/build, phase 1: the autopsy

I”ll throw a couple of for what it’s worth things out.

Engine:

If you haven’t already, take a careful look at the Cad Company Dyno combinations and pay particular attention to what the torque curve does with the different changes, and based on that and what you want to do with the car use this to make the determination on transmission, tire size and rear end ratio.

http://www.cad500parts.com/catalog/page10.htm

As far as parts:

First of ditch the nylon timing set and even if it hasn’t lost any teeth, still check the oil pickup well, as there is a good chances the valve seals may have deteriorated and lost some pieces that ended up in the screen. This is what I pulled out of an old pickup I had from a donor engine.

For the oil pump, you will need the later 425 pump to clear the front sway bar and even then it will be close. Unless you pick up a “blueprinted” pump from the Cad company or MTS, check the new pump for burrs etc on the pressure relief port which can cause the valve to hang up resulting in loss of oil pressure.

Check the rocker fulcrums well for wear. In good shape they are good for 5000 PRM with the appropriate springs. If they are worn out you may just want to go ahead and upgrade to shaft mounted rockers now.

Also check the outer head bolts. If they show any pitting (which they likely will) don’t take a chance, replace them.


Transmission: If you want bullet proof and cheap, the TH400 is your best bet. You can do the upgrades to a 200R4 but they aren’t cheap and no guarantee that it will last for say 50,000 miles. Personally I would use the money for upgrading the transmission and put it either in a 9” (you can change 3rd members in under an hour) or a gear vendor.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[G_Body_Enthusiast]

Re: cadillac 472 re/build, phase 1: the autopsy



i've started removing casting flash and smoothing all the exterior non mating surfaces. the block is harder than a SBC, the bits i use wore out faster than usual. i did almost 1 side of a SBC with one bit, i didnt even get the front of this block done and i used 1 new bit and 1/2 of another. but it's looking good so far, right now i'm just removing rust and doing a rough smoothing. later i'll do a more thorough smoothing to make it look it even better. i removed a vacuum switch that goes into the block behind where the distributor goes, what is that for? it looks like a thermal vacuum switch for an EGR on roids, its big and blue. it goes to 3 things, D, C and MT. it's a ported vacuum switch! i had to look it up.

it's also bad enough there's no low cost parts for these engines but i just looked up the price for a fel pro gasket set from autozone and it's 110 bucks and the same set from cadco is 160! i know who i wont be buying my gaskets from....

 

[G_Body_Enthusiast]

Re: cadillac 472 re/build, phase 2: planning and discussion

ok here are some pics of the cam. it isnt pretty...





should i be concerned about this happening again or is this a one off kind of thing? i have no idea what caused this so i'm kinda left stumped about what to do when i build the engine.

 

[online170]

Re: cadillac 472 re/build, phase 2: planning and discussion

should i be concerned about this happening again or is this a one off kind of thing? i have no idea what caused this so i'm kinda left stumped about what to do when i build the engine.

I dont think you need to worry about it.

Overheating? Low oil? Negiligance and abuse? Could be anything. The journals look good, and the lifters would give out way before the lifterbores get damaged.

Replace the cam, if it spins freely in ther with the tiniest bit of "wiggle" youre good to go! You can also get some grooved back bearings from Cadco if it helps you sleep at night. I also grooved my lifterbores because of the huge lift, but not necessary for what youre up to.

 

[G_Body_Enthusiast]

Re: cadillac 472 re/build, phase 2: planning and discussion

should i be concerned about this happening again or is this a one off kind of thing? i have no idea what caused this so i'm kinda left stumped about what to do when i build the engine.

I dont think you need to worry about it.

Overheating? Low oil? Negiligance and abuse? Could be anything. The journals look good, and the lifters would give out way before the lifterbores get damaged.

Replace the cam, if it spins freely in ther with the tiniest bit of "wiggle" youre good to go! You can also get some grooved back bearings from Cadco if it helps you sleep at night. I also grooved my lifterbores because of the huge lift, but not necessary for what youre up to.

i had planned on using cam bearings from cadco. the lift bores are in excellent shape showing very little wear and the lifters were nice and snug. a few needed persuading to get them out, gunk build up on the lifter areas that didnt touch the bore.

i just got done tearing down the HEI distributor he gave me with the engine and the housing and shaft are in great shape. the bad is it's dirty and needs at least a vacuum advance canister so i'll be rebuilding it with a kit from summit that has everything but the shaft and housing. i doubt i'll use the springs and weights in the kit though. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-850032/ it's a very thorough kit and still costs less than a rebuilt distributor at a local parts store, autozone wants 110 bucks with a 5 dollar core. the kit is 72 bucks, not a bad price. and since i still have the points distributor i can turn that into a oil pump primer and save myself the hassle of buying one. a free tool, how about them apples?

i'm also currently using naval jelly to get the rust off the exhaust manifolds. a higher concentration of phosphoric acid would speed things along, naval jelly works but is kinda slow to me. i've done some googling checking out other forums and seeing what people are using to paint their exhaust manifolds. some are using BBQ paint thats good up to 1200 degree or so. i do have a can but i'm still looking and reading before i paint them. maybe jet hot coating? send em in after the engine is broken in. i just hate seeing rusty manifolds so i want to do something to keep them looking nice.