Engine Swaps? What's the real story?

[svltrack]

Depends on the wording of the law but I highly doubt that a law controlling emissions would have anything to say about engine displacement(at least not in such clear terms)

Actually, the law requires that the configuration of engine size, cam profile, valve size, etc, etc, be certified under the EPA with the factory installed emissions equipment for the standards of the year of manufacture. That's pretty clear. There was never a 350 Olds certified for emissions in the A/G body cars after 1980. Thus it is not legal to perform a swap like that under federal and most state laws. The fact that the emissions equipment is present and hooked up doesn't mean that it's working properly with the larger engine. As noted previously, it is possible to sneak one by a state inspection facility, but if the tech is smart enough to catch the fact that the engine has been swapped, you won't have a legal leg to stand on.

Sir,

I think to make generalized statements like this is probably not in our interest. In the hope of finding some real information and not speculation I researched this evening:

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/067/c ... 77toc.html

There is enough in this document to keep your head spinning for weeks. That said and with nothing but respect to you.. I highly doubt that PA or any other state would say you are not allowed to swap and engine to another whether same or different than stock. Controlling what a car puts into the enviroment is a totally different thing. Their concern is that you do not put more pollution into the enviroment and not how much power is put to the ground

 

[FE3X CLONE]

I highly doubt that PA or any other state would say you are not allowed to swap and engine to another whether same or different than stock.

Sure they can. That's pretty much the purpose of the stupid laws. However, in most places OTHER than California, they won't bother to check block casting numbers, etc.

I know a friend of mine here in Ohio that managed to get his 455 to pass emissions by doing a lot of tuning and having all of the original pieces of the emissions system. However if they would have checked the block codes, it would have failed instantly no matter how clean it was.

 

[STL84Calais]

I like Missouri, if your vehicle is older than 1995, you have no emmisions 😀 . I'm getting historic plates when I finish the car anyway, so no safety inspections either. Which mean 3in all the way back with X pipe and race mufflers and no state interference! Sorry, don't mean to gloat .

 

[dan2286]

Depends on the wording of the law but I highly doubt that a law controlling emissions would have anything to say about engine displacement(at least not in such clear terms)

Actually, the law requires that the configuration of engine size, cam profile, valve size, etc, etc, be certified under the EPA with the factory installed emissions equipment for the standards of the year of manufacture. That's pretty clear. There was never a 350 Olds certified for emissions in the A/G body cars after 1980. Thus it is not legal to perform a swap like that under federal and most state laws. The fact that the emissions equipment is present and hooked up doesn't mean that it's working properly with the larger engine. As noted previously, it is possible to sneak one by a state inspection facility, but if the tech is smart enough to catch the fact that the engine has been swapped, you won't have a legal leg to stand on.

Sir,

I think to make generalized statements like this is probably not in our interest. In the hope of finding some real information and not speculation I researched this evening:

The original poster lives in California where emissions laws are much different than most states have.
http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/067/c ... 77toc.html

There is enough in this document to keep your head spinning for weeks. That said and with nothing but respect to you.. I highly doubt that PA or any other state would say you are not allowed to swap and engine to another whether same or different than stock. Controlling what a car puts into the enviroment is a totally different thing. Their concern is that you do not put more pollution into the enviroment and not how much power is put to the ground

 

[88hurstolds]

455s just have way too much torque and will eventully twist the frame,especially if its a modified 455.

Where did you hear this??? I've had a 455 for years and never twisted the frame. There's no such thing as "too much torque". 😉

I third that, I have two cars with beefy 455's and do not have the roof welds bustin out and I beat the crap out of those cars.
The key is havin at bare min. F41 bracing and tying in the frame rails which is cheep and easy to do.

455's have lower hp than the torque they put out and they give monster torque at lower RPM thus being more subtile with the power delivery. The 454 is a completly differnt monster, yes it will deliver the torque of a 455 but at higher RPM which means the torsional energy is released at higher RPM thus putting more strain on everything.

A 2004R will hold up if you have a stock 455 motor, you start to have problems when you start moddin a stock unrebuilt trans with a shift kit and a higher stall converter or just slap in a 455 on an old 2004R with a 2.41:1 rear.
Thats where the horror stories stem from 😀
Most of these cars that have TH2004R's come with 2.14, 2.28, 2.41 and 2.73 gears which are great for gas milage and cruisin but that means the engine needs to push the trans harder to turn the rear.
Yes the torque of the 307 is ideal (that is why it was used in Wagons, Caddy's, Limos and some Vans) but when you up the anti and dont give any relief in the rear the trans takes the brunt of it and it will die quickly.
Thus too much stored torsional energy winds up in the trans with a high rear gear when you stomp on it.
Believe it or not a lower rear gear (3.73/3.42) will benefit the trans if it's older... I vouch from experience.
The best combo is 3.42/3.73 with a TH-2004R and a 455.
If you are going 3-speed, use 3.08's they compliment the 455 very nicely.

 

[joe_padavano]

Depends on the wording of the law but I highly doubt that a law controlling emissions would have anything to say about engine displacement(at least not in such clear terms)

Actually, the law requires that the configuration of engine size, cam profile, valve size, etc, etc, be certified under the EPA with the factory installed emissions equipment for the standards of the year of manufacture. That's pretty clear. There was never a 350 Olds certified for emissions in the A/G body cars after 1980. Thus it is not legal to perform a swap like that under federal and most state laws. The fact that the emissions equipment is present and hooked up doesn't mean that it's working properly with the larger engine. As noted previously, it is possible to sneak one by a state inspection facility, but if the tech is smart enough to catch the fact that the engine has been swapped, you won't have a legal leg to stand on.

Sir,

I think to make generalized statements like this is probably not in our interest. In the hope of finding some real information and not speculation I researched this evening:

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/067/c ... 77toc.html

Did you actually read that document? From § 177.204. Basis for failure.:

(4) Visual inspection of vehicle emission control system. A vehicle shall fail the visual inspection if applicable required emission control equipment specified in § 177.203(d) is not present, is not properly connected or is not the correct type for the certified configuration.

As I said, there is no "certified configuration" for anything other than a 260 or 307 Olds motor after the 1980 model year. If the inspector is smart enough to figure out the engine is larger than a certified configuration (and as I noted above, that is a very big "if"), it is grounds for failure under the document you provided.

 

[svltrack]

Guys.. we should not squabble over this. Maybe we can agree to disagree.. I don't know.

Think of the inverse.. Would the EPA fail a car that someone installed an engine of smaller size so someone could lower their emissions??? They would not

 

[joe_padavano]

Guys.. we should not squabble over this. Maybe we can agree to disagree.. I don't know.

Think of the inverse.. Would the EPA fail a car that someone installed an engine of smaller size so someone could lower their emissions??? They would not

Actually, yes they would. Again, there is nothing to debate, it is law - just go read it. A particular engine of a specific size MUST be certified for the specific emissions equipment for a specific year. Different displacements are NOT certified and thus are not legal. I am not making this up - do your own research. On other forums there are frequently posts by people who have not done this research, go through all the effort to swap the motor, then are whining because they can't get it past emissions.

DOH!

As I've said before, ASSUMING the inspector is smart enough to tell that the engine in the car is not one that was offered in that model year or newer, that is grounds for failing the visual part of the test. As I've also said before, most jurisdictions (Calif included) allow you to swap a NEWER, certified engine into an older car so long as you also swap all the emissions equipment that goes with the newer engine. The law (and common sense) says you can swap a CERTIFIED cleaner engine.

You are only risking your own time and money if you proceed to conduct a questionable swap without doing your homework first.

 

[svltrack]

Guys.. we should not squabble over this. Maybe we can agree to disagree.. I don't know.

Think of the inverse.. Would the EPA fail a car that someone installed an engine of smaller size so someone could lower their emissions??? They would not

Actually, yes they would. Again, there is nothing to debate, it is law - just go read it. A particular engine of a specific size MUST be certified for the specific emissions equipment for a specific year. Different displacements are NOT certified and thus are not legal. I am not making this up - do your own research. On other forums there are frequently posts by people who have not done this research, go through all the effort to swap the motor, then are whining because they can't get it past emissions.

DOH!

As I've said before, ASSUMING the inspector is smart enough to tell that the engine in the car is not one that was offered in that model year or newer, that is grounds for failing the visual part of the test. As I've also said before, most jurisdictions (Calif included) allow you to swap a NEWER, certified engine into an older car so long as you also swap all the emissions equipment that goes with the newer engine. The law (and common sense) says you can swap a CERTIFIED cleaner engine.

You are only risking your own time and money if you proceed to conduct a questionable swap without doing your homework first.

Hey there guy. I was the one who said we should call a truce. If you want to squabble then write me a PM, I am not interested in duking it out on here with you though. We can debate to our hearts content. Nothing else will help this thread further though and I simply will not slig sh*t online.

 

[joe_padavano]

... and I simply will not slig sh*t online.

Funny, because I'm not the one using four letter words. Reasonable, intelligent people should be able to have a discussion without resorting to profanity. I'm simply quoting the law.