Have Electric Cars finally killed muscle cars???

[Hurricane77]

Hotrodders' of the 50s-60s-70s were the hackers of the time.

EV's won't kill the car enthusiasts, or the 'muscle' cars, they'll just change. People will still try and take whatever is made and push the limits of performance. Not so different that the guys who overclock and mod PC to get a few more frames per second. They're doing the equivalent of chasing a few hundredth down the 1/4 mile.

There is a ton of infrastructure lacking to support a wholesale shift to EVs. As has been pointed out, if one were to convert the amount energy consumed by gasoline and shifted that demand to the electrical grid, we'd all be sitting in the dark like it was 2003.

I really don't have an issue with getting an EV. For 95% of my driving it'd be fine. Doubt I'd go all electric with my vehicles. Or if I did, the rare times that I want to do a major road trip I could just rent a car. Right now my issue with EVs is that the selection is crap and the price premium is way too high. Over 60k CAD for the cheapest Telsa model 3. Not that I'd buy a Tesla anyway. But anything that seems half decent is at least that price.

I don't mind solar either, even in our climate. What's wrong with having your own on site generating capability? I live in the country, when the power goes out, I have to budget flushing toilets. No electricity, no water. Plus then I have to babysit my sump pumps. Sure, I have a generator, but honestly I get real tired of all the maintenance etc with all the small engine stuff.

 

[DRIVEN]

I just wish we'd call them what they are, although I do admire the flashy rebranding grift.

Coal powered is still coal powered. The only difference is the method of turning the wheels.

They can auto-felate all they want. Still burning fossil fuel.

 

[ck80]

Or if I did, the rare times that I want to do a major road trip I could just rent a car.

When the time comes, all rental fleets will be EV. Lowers maintenance costs since they only keep then 2 years, no oil changes, no down time for service.

Only barrier to this right now is purchase cost differential. As states and provinces in countries ban new sales of ICE, next step is going to be a tax on ICE engines sort of the inverse of purchase tax credits, once those phase out.

 

[Clone TIE Pilot]

Hotrodders' of the 50s-60s-70s were the hackers of the time.

EV's won't kill the car enthusiasts, or the 'muscle' cars, they'll just change. People will still try and take whatever is made and push the limits of performance. Not so different that the guys who overclock and mod PC to get a few more frames per second. They're doing the equivalent of chasing a few hundredth down the 1/4 mile.

There is a ton of infrastructure lacking to support a wholesale shift to EVs. As has been pointed out, if one were to convert the amount energy consumed by gasoline and shifted that demand to the electrical grid, we'd all be sitting in the dark like it was 2003.

I really don't have an issue with getting an EV. For 95% of my driving it'd be fine. Doubt I'd go all electric with my vehicles. Or if I did, the rare times that I want to do a major road trip I could just rent a car. Right now my issue with EVs is that the selection is crap and the price premium is way too high. Over 60k CAD for the cheapest Telsa model 3. Not that I'd buy a Tesla anyway. But anything that seems half decent is at least that price.

I don't mind solar either, even in our climate. What's wrong with having your own on site generating capability? I live in the country, when the power goes out, I have to budget flushing toilets. No electricity, no water. Plus then I have to babysit my sump pumps. Sure, I have a generator, but honestly I get real tired of all the maintenance etc with all the small engine stuff.

Big difference between back then and now is that car manufacturers can monitor modern cars in real time and detect any tampering via the over the air live updates. Teslas are already like this, if they detect a owner messing around with the car they can brick it or blackball that owner from service including fast charging. Its basically a PC on wheels where Microsoft can screw around with winfows remotely but not you. With most software you don't own it, you only have a end user agreement. Its not your properity to change. That is not getting in anti emission tampering laws that cover automotive software as well. Its a lot more complex from the old days and we no longer can 100% own modern cars like in the past.

 

[ck80]

Big difference between back then and now is that car manufacturers can monitor modern cars in real time and detect any tampering via the over the air live updates. Teslas are already like this, if they detect a owner messing around with the car they can brick it or blackball that owner from service including fast charging. Its basically a PC on wheels where Microsoft can screw around with winfows remotely but not you. With most software you don't own it, you only have a end user agreement. Its not your properity to change. That is not getting in anti emission tampering laws that cover automotive software as well. Its a lot more complex from the old days and we no longer can 100% own modern cars like in the past.

The battle remains ongoing over this very issue via the 'right to repair' legislation - something that has gone so far as having Volkswagen disable certain popular options on new cars sold in certain states due to refusing to allow access into its software and relinquish that control and that very issue of licensing.

It extends because you could, for example, want to change to an a/c delete setup, or, add some aftermarket management system into the car, and, need the right to make that change. Meantime the court fights continue.

 

[doood]

I don't mind solar either

I often wonder how many years for EROI (return on energy investment) for a solar panel installed in Canada - probably longer than the useful life, which itself is probably bounded by probabilities of incidental damage (a tree falling on it eventually). Plus, solar is really good for transferring CAD to Chinese manufacturers of solar panels. IOW, solar panel in Canada likely never collects the energy used to fabricate it from ore. Gives warm green fuzzies tho.

 

[spidereyes455]

 

[Hurricane77]

Big difference between back then and now is that car manufacturers can monitor modern cars in real time and detect any tampering via the over the air live updates. Teslas are already like this, if they detect a owner messing around with the car they can brick it or blackball that owner from service including fast charging. Its basically a PC on wheels where Microsoft can screw around with winfows remotely but not you. With most software you don't own it, you only have a end user agreement. Its not your properity to change. That is not getting in anti emission tampering laws that cover automotive software as well. Its a lot more complex from the old days and we no longer can 100% own modern cars like in the past.

Already big fights over right to repair legislation in a number of countries and industries. John Deere is in a huge fight right now with farmers. Something goes wrong with the tractor, it shuts down and only an authorized tech can unlock it and get it running again. Same thing with Apple and other phone manufacturers, Apple being particularly bad about not supporting third party parts for repair, or allowing only Apple authorized repairs.

There's also been a number of articles and cases of automotive manufacturers trying to switch to a subscription based model for various features. You want factory remote start? $5/month. Support for Android auto/Apple Car Play, heated seats and other features. I've heard of stories of BMW, Toyota and VW trying to pull stuff like this. Most recent one was a high end Audi flashing up a message saying they didn't purchase a particular feature when a button on the console was pressed.

Some of it's a legitimate argument. A company has developed a particular product, it's their IP and why should they have to allow 3rd parties to make replacement parts. The shift to subscription models is very attractive to manufacturers. But it's hard to swallow for us consumers - it's not like the price of cars is coming down to compensate for the fact that we're going to have to pay for the use of several creature comforts over the lift of the car. We'll see where it goes. The EU seems much more resistant to all this ultra proprietary approach and much more supportive of forcing manufacturers to use open standards.

 

[Hurricane77]

I often wonder how many years for EROI (return on energy investment) for a solar panel installed in Canada - probably longer than the useful life, which itself is probably bounded by probabilities of incidental damage (a tree falling on it eventually). Plus, solar is really good for transferring CAD to Chinese manufacturers of solar panels. IOW, solar panel in Canada likely never collects the energy used to fabricate it from ore. Gives warm green fuzzies tho.

Depending on the region, it's about 10-12 years according to most. Realistically, it's probably a bit longer Lets say 15 years. Less with some gov incentives that that will offset the cost a bit. Panels should be good for 20+ years. They do derate with age though. You do have to deal with stuff like snow, and if you have the space for a ground mount, that's easier to keep clean. Roof mounts have other issues too. If you ever need to replace or repair your roof, you're having to strip the panels off and then reinstall. Not to mention every lag bolt you put through your roof deck increase the chances of leaks. There are actually several Canadian 'manufacturers' - though likely made from global components.

And then there's the question of what do you do with them once they're no longer useful. Can they be effectively recycled? Right now I can get a rebate and an interest free loan and at the same time offset about 70% of my utility costs per year. I am totally reliant on electricity. Natural gas is not an option. Propane or oil could be, but those prices have gone crazy lately, and none of it is regulated. So I can get a subsidized install, offset a bunch of my utility costs and get a little bit of 'backup' capability.

I have no issue with being environmentally friendly when I can. And I'll agree, there a whole bunch of smoke and mirrors when it comes to being 'green'. And some of it really is just kicking the can down the road - solving a current problem in a way that creates another problem down the road.

 

[ck80]

Depending on the region, it's about 10-12 years according to most. Realistically, it's probably a bit longer Lets say 15 years. Less with some gov incentives that that will offset the cost a bit. Panels should be good for 20+ years. They do derate with age though. You do have to deal with stuff like snow, and if you have the space for a ground mount, that's easier to keep clean. Roof mounts have other issues too. If you ever need to replace or repair your roof, you're having to strip the panels off and then reinstall. Not to mention every lag bolt you put through your roof deck increase the chances of leaks. There are actually several Canadian 'manufacturers' - though likely made from global components.

And then there's the question of what do you do with them once they're no longer useful. Can they be effectively recycled? Right now I can get a rebate and an interest free loan and at the same time offset about 70% of my utility costs per year. I am totally reliant on electricity. Natural gas is not an option. Propane or oil could be, but those prices have gone crazy lately, and none of it is regulated. So I can get a subsidized install, offset a bunch of my utility costs and get a little bit of 'backup' capability.

I have no issue with being environmentally friendly when I can. And I'll agree, there a whole bunch of smoke and mirrors when it comes to being 'green'. And some of it really is just kicking the can down the road - solving a current problem in a way that creates another problem down the road.

The lay of the land may be different in Canada than the States. Oh, sure, both have varying subsidies and such. But at least down here utility companies are seeking to add base charges to houses on solar to cover their infrastructure and make up for lost revenue, and lessening how and when homes get credits for energy released back into the grid.

As far as on-site consumption goes, it's gets complicated depending on who you are and when you use power. If you store it for non-daylight hours in the fall/winter/spring you need battery packs that degrade over time as well. But unless you're retired and then just go to sleep at night, running a wood stove/furnace for heat, most of your consumption will be at times you don't generate....

I've looked at it quite a bit, mainly because I'd love to get into a family compound situation. I want a driveway at least 1500ft long and no neighbor visible day or night. Found an Addams family style house but major inspection issues had us not go through. Since then we've been checking in on a couple 100-250 acre properties but I'm not impressed by the lack of maple/beech/cherry on the properties.... it's heavy pine/hemlock with some oaks mostly. So some minimal grid connectivity would be nice, but like I said.... issues.. .