Honda Accord LT1 swap using G-body parts planning
- Thread starter IronyOfFate
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pontiacgp said:
how much of the engine will be in the passenger compartment.. I guess I would have to figure that out in the process. I am just looking at different options right now, I won't be 100% sure until I actually do some measurements on some RWD cars I can use
IronyOfFate said:
when you look at the FWD the get away using a shortened and low front end with the engine turned sideways and sitting lower than when inbetween 2 rails like a RWD.....take a look a the length of the hood on a G body and the height of the nose which is required to enclose the engine and try to think how you'd get an Accord front end to cover it...
IronyOfFate said:
Trust me, it's gonna be more expensive than you can conceive and require a lot of fabrication to do it right and not build a death trap. The reason I suggested the Mazda and Nissan parts is that they may be closer in size to the Accord, and because most of their suspensions bolt to a simple crossmember so you don't need to worry about the geometry of anything but the struts. (Theoretically, you could also eliminate the rear strut towers by laying the dampner/spring package flat and actuating them using a set of cantilevers. Look at an Ariel Atom to see what I mean.) By doing it with a pair of complete suspensions, you could fabricate a frame or set of subframes to weld into the Accord and bolt the suspension crossmembers to. (I came up with this approach when I planned a Nissan B13 Sentra/Tsuru/Sunny that I was planning to convert to AWD using parts from a RNN14 Pulsar GTiR. BTW, it never got beyond the planning stage due to time and cost.) For mounts, I would get a set of universal LS side mounts and build your own to get the engine positioned as low and far back as possible. You will also need to fabricate most or all of the floor in the passenger area, and make it all work with a transmission tunnel the car lacks currently. This will mean you may need to work on pedal geometry, and don't forget about the brake proportioning and proper master cylinder sizing if you plan to stop. Then, you will need to couple the stock steering column or swap it to one from the front suspension donor vehicle. You also need to be sure that the wheels you choose are offset in such a way as to put the wheel bearings in the center of the wheel's width so that the bearings get proper loading. Yes, you can get away with not doing that, but the bearings will need more frequent replacement. You will also need to relocate the gas tank from under the back seat to either behind the axle (somewhat dangerous in an accident) or above the axle and behind the seat, like a Jaguar XJ-6, Holden GTO or Infiniti J-30. This is because the driveshaft will need to go where the tank is now, and the pinion snout will also be likely to intrude into the tank's real estate. If you could figure it out, you could also put it under the front seats as a single or dual tank setup, like the one in a Honda Jazz/Fit, which would allow you to use the space below the back seat for suspension or exhaust components, or even a switch to the Fit's versatile back seat. Now, an independent rear suspension minimizes the space needed here because the driveshaft does not need to move up or down. However, safety would dictate the fabrication of a driveshaft safety loop to keep it from puncturing the fuel tank in case of a failure (if the stock tank stayed). Also, because you wish to use an LSX, you will need a baffled fuel tank to avoid drops in fuel supply around corners which can quickly kill the pump. Then, you will need an exhaust system, and you will need to plan around it while designing the car as it does take up real estate under the car. There's nothing worse than an exhaust that hangs too low and get's ruined after a few speed bumps.
There is more if you would like me to list it. I am not trying to be a dick here. I don't know the level of knowledge, money or skill that you possess. I just don't like to see people waste money and get in over their heads with what seemed to be a simple idea that mushroomed out of control. (Been there!) Your statement that you don't wish to spend too much here makes me think you don't really know what you are proposing here, because it IS going to be expensive. It's expensive even to just swap a stock LSX into a normal G body. By the time you get the engine, engine management, exhaust, transmission, driveshaft, fuel system, electronics, hoses and hard lines, cooling system, etc. done it costs between $5,000 and $10,000, if you do it right. And that's in a car that it bolts in to with a simple mount kit. An LT1 is cheaper, but would still run you over $2500 to do everything properly. If you wish to still do it, I wish you all the luck in the world. I'd even offer to help out with it as I love this sort of thing. However, I would suggest trying a less ambitious project instead with less engineering required since cost is an issue.
Hey, if you want different, try a 1980's Mercedes Benz 240D (Type W123) with the LSX swap. It's RWD already, overengineered, also came in an EFI gasser version (so you can use the stock tank). No one does anything with them other than run waste veggie oil in them, so who would think it was fast? Plus, the wide variety of engines means a wide variety of gearing choices in junkyards too. However, my all time favorite is the BMW E30 3 series with these engines. Again, cheap to buy, RWD, and overbuilt German cars with low weight. I think with the LSX it weighs 2700lbs. It has been done by many people and there are great parts interchanges with other 3,5,6 and 7 series BMW's of the same era. If you want any other ideas, I am full of them due to my love of quirky, unconventional thinking.
85 Cutlass Brougham said:IronyOfFate said:
Trust me, it's gonna be more expensive than you can conceive and require a lot of fabrication to do it right and not build a death trap. The reason I suggested the Mazda and Nissan parts is that they may be closer in size to the Accord, and because most of their suspensions bolt to a simple crossmember so you don't need to worry about the geometry of anything but the struts. (Theoretically, you could also eliminate the rear strut towers by laying the dampner/spring package flat and actuating them using a set of cantilevers. Look at an Ariel Atom to see what I mean.) By doing it with a pair of complete suspensions, you could fabricate a frame or set of subframes to weld into the Accord and bolt the suspension crossmembers to. (I came up with this approach when I planned a Nissan B13 Sentra/Tsuru/Sunny that I was planning to convert to AWD using parts from a RNN14 Pulsar GTiR. BTW, it never got beyond the planning stage due to time and cost.) For mounts, I would get a set of universal LS side mounts and build your own to get the engine positioned as low and far back as possible. You will also need to fabricate most or all of the floor in the passenger area, and make it all work with a transmission tunnel the car lacks currently. This will mean you may need to work on pedal geometry, and don't forget about the brake proportioning and proper master cylinder sizing if you plan to stop. Then, you will need to couple the stock steering column or swap it to one from the front suspension donor vehicle. You also need to be sure that the wheels you choose are offset in such a way as to put the wheel bearings in the center of the wheel's width so that the bearings get proper loading. Yes, you can get away with not doing that, but the bearings will need more frequent replacement. You will also need to relocate the gas tank from under the back seat to either behind the axle (somewhat dangerous in an accident) or above the axle and behind the seat, like a Jaguar XJ-6, Holden GTO or Infiniti J-30. This is because the driveshaft will need to go where the tank is now, and the pinion snout will also be likely to intrude into the tank's real estate. If you could figure it out, you could also put it under the front seats as a single or dual tank setup, like the one in a Honda Jazz/Fit, which would allow you to use the space below the back seat for suspension or exhaust components, or even a switch to the Fit's versatile back seat. Now, an independent rear suspension minimizes the space needed here because the driveshaft does not need to move up or down. However, safety would dictate the fabrication of a driveshaft safety loop to keep it from puncturing the fuel tank in case of a failure (if the stock tank stayed). Also, because you wish to use an LSX, you will need a baffled fuel tank to avoid drops in fuel supply around corners which can quickly kill the pump. Then, you will need an exhaust system, and you will need to plan around it while designing the car as it does take up real estate under the car. There's nothing worse than an exhaust that hangs too low and get's ruined after a few speed bumps.
There is more if you would like me to list it. I am not trying to be a dick here. I don't know the level of knowledge, money or skill that you possess. I just don't like to see people waste money and get in over their heads with what seemed to be a simple idea that mushroomed out of control. (Been there!) Your statement that you don't wish to spend too much here makes me think you don't really know what you are proposing here, because it IS going to be expensive. It's expensive even to just swap a stock LSX into a normal G body. By the time you get the engine, engine management, exhaust, transmission, driveshaft, fuel system, electronics, hoses and hard lines, cooling system, etc. done it costs between $5,000 and $10,000, if you do it right. And that's in a car that it bolts in to with a simple mount kit. An LT1 is cheaper, but would still run you over $2500 to do everything properly. If you wish to still do it, I wish you all the luck in the world. I'd even offer to help out with it as I love this sort of thing. However, I would suggest trying a less ambitious project instead with less engineering required since cost is an issue.
Hey, if you want different, try a 1980's Mercedes Benz 240D (Type W123) with the LSX swap. It's RWD already, overengineered, also came in an EFI gasser version (so you can use the stock tank). No one does anything with them other than run waste veggie oil in them, so who would think it was fast? Plus, the wide variety of engines means a wide variety of gearing choices in junkyards too. However, my all time favorite is the BMW E30 3 series with these engines. Again, cheap to buy, RWD, and overbuilt German cars with low weight. I think with the LSX it weighs 2700lbs. It has been done by many people and there are great parts interchanges with other 3,5,6 and 7 series BMW's of the same era. If you want any other ideas, I am full of them due to my love of quirky, unconventional thinking.
wow thanks for such a detailed reply. I understand that it is going to cost 5K+ but I would like to at least use an inexpensive donor vehicle (rx7, fox body, g-body, etc)
And I definitely do not want a death trap. I think with common sense I could reinforce it enough to handle the power and the extra weight. I won't mind welding and designing a new floor, firewall, tunnel, etc.
I've been thinking about this project and how to make things a little easier for myself. What if I take, for example, an RX7 and just use the whole bottom from it? I would Cut a big hole in the Accord, and put it on top of the RX7 bottom and keep full RX7 suspension, rear end, and engine bay.
Of course the RX7 bottom may need to be extended for the Accord body, but that would take less time than designing my own suspension etc.
I would need to make some brackets to bolt the Accord front bumper and fenders onto the RX7 bay, then of course a custom firewall would be made, and the rest of the Accord body would be welded to the RX7 bottom. Then the Accord dash will be placed inside and I would make a custom wiring harness.
I have also thought about using a fox body mustang and using the whole bottom from it. It is the same width as the Accord body, but the wheelbase is shorter but I could just modify the Accord front fenders and then the Accord body would drop onto it.
What do you think about these ideas?
The thing is, the engine will probably not fit lengthwise in the bay with a radiator, etc. What I would do is go to your local self serve yard and take a tape measure. Measure all of your critical dimensions and write them down. The LT1 or it's externally identical smaller sibling can be found in a Caprice from the mid 90's. You also need to know the amount of height you need for the struts, etc. A new front suspension crossmember may need to be made in order to clear the oil pan. I have done this measuring thing for a number of my better ideas like a S13 240SX with a Ford 302 HO (great, cheap engine!) that I had wanted to build for the GRM $2008 Challenge race. It fit closely enough with a mixture of stock parts to be almost a bolt in affair. Plus, the Ford 302 and the Nissan's KA24 come in front sump configuration which was useful in that theoretical build. (stock Fox 302's are rear sump).
Sorry for the short reply, but my mind is in other places today.
Sorry for the short reply, but my mind is in other places today.
I have not done any measurements but I would check a vega/ monza. They are pretty small and fit a small block/ LS quite well.
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