Is this an alignment issue

[Sweet_Johnny]

Yes it will lower your car, it also reduces or even eliminates bumpsteer and raises the roll center which helps with cornering. The tall upper ball joint is really the one you're concerned about and it will not lower the car. Taller ball joints may require a larger diameter wheel to avoid rubbing.

You don't have to buy taller ball joints, but you'll never get it shimmed to spec, and the specs suck anyways. They will allow you to set it up even better, and should be used with arms designed for them. I searched high and low, researched every forum, read every review, and I opted for upper arms from SSM. Stock lowers are fine.

 

[Sweet_Johnny]

Out of curiosity, what are the full specs on the wheels and tires you just put on?

When you look for an alignment shop make sure to ask if the techs are actually familiar with older vehicles or have only seen them on TV. Some can only set up a car exactly how the computer says to do it and don't truly understand what they're doing, but can recite the reading material in its entirety. They may not know things particular to cars of that era.

Or you can do it at home- you seem mechanically inclined and there are threads and videos that cover it. Worst case scenario it still needs an alignment. If you like books, I recommend "How to Make Your Muscle Car Handle" by Mark Savitske, "Chassis Engineering" by Herb Adams, and "Engineer to Win" by Carroll Smith.

 

[Irishspring46]

So really I can run it without changing the ball joints. An alignment should hopefully fix my vibration right? If not it would have to be my tires. I’d like to avoid putting any money into the handling of the car because I’ve got 2 or 3 (can’t remember) missing body mounts, so in my opinion there’s really no point in putting tons of money into the handling of the car (it’s more for looks). As long as I get it aligned everything should be fine correct?. And if that is correct do you recommend any alignment specs? And all my wheels are 18x8s the front tires are 245/40r-18s and the rear is 265/40zr-18s. And yeah I might consider doing it myself but not sure yet. I’m 20 and kinda learning as I go to some extent.

Out of curiosity, what are the full specs on the wheels and tires you just put on?

When you look for an alignment shop make sure to ask if the techs are actually familiar with older vehicles or have only seen them on TV. Some can only set up a car exactly how the computer says to do it and don't truly understand what they're doing, but can recite the reading material in its entirety. They may not know things particular to cars of that era.

Or you can do it at home- you seem mechanically inclined and there are threads and videos that cover it. Worst case scenario it still needs an alignment. If you like books, I recommend "How to Make Your Muscle Car Handle" by Mark Savitske, "Chassis Engineering" by Herb Adams, and "Engineer to Win" by Carroll Smith.

 

[Irishspring46]

Check out my account I just posted some pics of it

 

[melloelky]

do one thing @ a time,have the tires looked at and see what happens.theres no sence in adding more things to this Equation that is already troublesome,
less new parts involved rite off the bat is a good idea when chasing your tail with something.get through the vibration issue and get an alignment and go from there.

 

[Rt Jam]

Most tire shops do not recognize out of round. Look to see for yourself.
Get the tire spinning and measure the tread runout.

 

[scoti]

So really I can run it without changing the ball joints. An alignment should hopefully fix my vibration right? If not it would have to be my tires. I’d like to avoid putting any money into the handling of the car because I’ve got 2 or 3 (can’t remember) missing body mounts, so in my opinion there’s really no point in putting tons of money into the handling of the car (it’s more for looks). As long as I get it aligned everything should be fine correct?. And if that is correct do you recommend any alignment specs? And all my wheels are 18x8s the front tires are 245/40r-18s and the rear is 265/40zr-18s. And yeah I might consider doing it myself but not sure yet. I’m 20 and kinda learning as I go to some extent.

Start w/the wheels/tires. As mentioned, I've come across more than one budget brand/type of tire that someone has had issues with vibrations. This is especially true when it's a 'noob' doing the mounting & balancing of said budget tires. Go back to where they were purchased & have the balancing verified (or have it verified somewhere that you know will actually verify things).

I had to purchase a BFG Radial T/A due to a road hazard issue on the highway. There was a NTB Tire close by so that was my option. Decent tires for what they are so it should have been straight forward service, The guy had over 6oz. of weight in a spot & they told me "You must have bent the wheel when the damage occurred because it won't balance out". WTF? No, I did not damage the wheel. The wheel/tire balanced out just fine before w/the previous tire & I know there has been no damage done to the wheel since. I asked to see the set-up & watch the wheel tire on the machine. I immediately saw all the weights. I told the guy you don't keep adding weight directly across from another weight to counter an issue (you remove the weights; deflate the tire & rotate it on the wheel to a different clocking position; then inflate & re-balance).

The outcome? Still out of balance. The guys again said the wheel is damaged & that's the problem.

I again challenged that & told them to remove the tire & check the wheel only. The naked wheel (15x6" steel wheel) required .25oz weight to balance out 100%. The issue was the tire (that brand new tire). A different tire & it balanced out. I looked over the guys shoulder the entire time since of the four guys there @ the shop, not one of them knew to do what I was telling them to do to diagnose/isolate where the issue was. I stopped mounting/balancing tires in the early '90's but the steps/logic still apply.

 

[Sweet_Johnny]

So really I can run it without changing the ball joints. An alignment should hopefully fix my vibration right? If not it would have to be my tires. I’d like to avoid putting any money into the handling of the car because I’ve got 2 or 3 (can’t remember) missing body mounts, so in my opinion there’s really no point in putting tons of money into the handling of the car (it’s more for looks). As long as I get it aligned everything should be fine correct?. And if that is correct do you recommend any alignment specs? And all my wheels are 18x8s the front tires are 245/40r-18s and the rear is 265/40zr-18s. And yeah I might consider doing it myself but not sure yet. I’m 20 and kinda learning as I go to some extent.

You can get an alignment without swapping ball joints and it will help. You'll have as many shims in there as can fit and still won't get it adjusted correctly. And that many shims to fix camber can throw off your caster. I understand being on a tight budget, trust me on that one, and not wanting to upgrade steering/suspension when the body mounts are missing is wise. I think most people do their mods in the wrong order and should start with minimizing parasitic loss before maximizing output or making it "sit pretty". This situation falls into "safety", "longevity", and "avoiding future nonsense". It's a lot, but a few hundred bucks could fix your current problem and skip you right by a few others. Right now you have a taller, wider, heavier wheel leaning out at the top and pointing inward in the front while traveling forward in a straight line.

Others are giving good advice in the sense that they're starting small and cheap, and systematically working their way up the chain. A tire that's out of round or has a slipped belt will cause vibration, as will a bent/imbalanced wheel. After checking that and all of the connections you can move on to the alignment. I was operating on the assumption these things had been triple checked already. Again, an alignment will be an improvement but the problem won't be solved and will still lead to uneven tire wear. Look at almost any old school lowered S10 and the front tires are worn in a very specific area- we share front suspension with them.

I don't have any specs for you offhand, sorry. With 18x8 rims you've got more weight spread out over a larger area so anything that's not right will be magnified, regardless of the source.

In the end you can only do what you can afford, and you can afford more if you do it at home. I applaud you for taking on such a task in the first place.

 

[78Delta88]

Johnny and the others are exactly right. With 2 inch drop and stock upper and lower control arms you have changed the OEM geometry.

The wheel rotates, yet the arms move up and down in an arc, the wheels move side to side in an arc. 2 inch drop with no changes to the rest of the system is about the same as dropping a 454 where a 305 used to be.

Vibration at a specific speed is usually a harmonic. And like the others have said, could be bad carcass or bad balance or both. Slipped belt or out of round will typically be bad all speeds.

Take the car out to a back road somewhere "safe" get up to the speed where you note the vibration and have a friend drive beside you with a passenger listen for the classic "whapp whapp whapp" sound. If you hear that, it's a harmonic. The springs natural frequency and it is picking it up (wheel tire assembly) and slamming it down at speed.

Now drive slowly behind large long building (preferably brick) at about 20mph with your drivers window down. Stay straight, radio and AC off, listen to the echo of the tire bouncing back from the wall. It will be much slower, but if you hear the "whapp whapp whapp" sound..., it's a bad tire, flat spot or slipped belt. Out of balance typically will not show up at that low of a speed, but a bad tire will.

Next what about rotors, current status of brakes... Are they Ok or need done?? When were they last turned??

Did your; son, wife, daughter, mom, kid down the block, drive your car and smack a curb and not tell you??

Status of front end parts?? In spec or need replacement??

You took 2 inches out of its swing, yet the front knuckle with spindle is the same dimension top to bottom, so it swings up and puts the system into more negative camber. So the main thing you changed is camber angle and bringing it back to slight positive will require good amount of shims, but can be done.

Get a decent but not too expensive IR thermometer. Drive for about 10 minutes and you will see across the tread width the temperature difference. All things being equal your inner section of both tires will be hotter than the outer section. When you see that you understand the need for the camber adjustment.

Just do the easy stuff first and start ruling out potential causes, then you get to true root cause and that's something you can fix

 

[Sweet_Johnny]

You took 2 inches out of its swing, yet the front knuckle with spindle is the same dimension top to bottom, so it swings up and puts the system into more negative camber.

I mean absolutely no disrespect by this, and I hope I'm not coming off as a condescending know-it-all. If anyone sees something I get incorrect, please correct me. It's been a long 48 hours.

This might be true if both control arms swung on identical arcs, but ours do not. If the lower control arm begins nearly level with the ground (let's call this "stock" just for the sake of this conversation), then when it swings up the outer end will only move closer to the vehicle, pulling the lower ball joint inward.

The upper control arm is aiming down (the imaginary line from the pivot point to the ball joint is), so when it swings up the outer end has to get farther away from the vehicle before it gets closer. Imagine the minute hand of a clock pointing at 5 when the car is at rest. Hit a bump or lower the car and it points at 3, pushing the top of the wheel out (+ camber). Remember the lower control arm that started out aiming at around 3? It's now pointing at 1, pulling the bottom in and making things worse.

The installed height of the coil springs dictate the angle of the factory lower control arm at rest.

Installing taller ball joints will change the angle of the upper control arm at rest. Even a tall lower ball joint. The goal is to not have the outer end of the upper arm push out and gain any + camber as it moves through its arc.

A shorter upper control arm (or shimming the hell out of it) will change the vertical lean of the wheel/tire, bringing it in and minimizing the + camber at rest.

Try to get your tie rods and lower control arms at the same angle as each other to minimize bumpsteer. Another story of conflicting arcs.

I hate lowering springs with a passion, and will happily spend hours combing the Moog database for the perfect combo of spring height and rate to suit my needs.