LS VS Oldschool

[CamaroAdam73]

I have been out of this thread mostly because it follows the same line as any other vs comparison. Unless you level the playing field the discussion is just an opinion piece.

To honestly compare a LS to an "oldschool"

1st must pick a similar displacement
2nd must pick a similar HP/Torque output
3rd must only use retail prices from same vendor ( one can always find that killer deal that other can't or have that friend that can do fab work for 6pack and pizza)
4th must have a common start point for platform (ie: same stock factory original vehicle)
5th must include EVERY piece, part, modification cost to make it a running driving vehicle .


Short of that there is no honest comparison. Personally I think both have pros and cons that make them both great and both poor depending on use, cost, complexity, ease of maintenance, appearance, etc.

Exactly, but in this case the LS is so much better and lighter that it can give up a few cubes, otherwise I agree and is pretty much what I said.

And as for the SBC going 300k, some do, most don't . My current Vortec in my Tahoe has 167k and doesn't use a drop of oil or make any noise. But on a consistent bases the newer engines will outlast them and even the efi versions of the old engines will live far longer than carbed versions.

In my mind that's what it comes down too. Both engine platforms retain pros/cons over one another.

As for the newer engines outliving the older ones, i don't think so. I'm pretty sure its all how you take care of them, I've seen both old and new running with a pile of miles. Working at a garage I've seen some chevy trucks from the 90's to mid 2000s roll in with the high end of 200k, and one notable case was a 2000 something chevy/gmc, dont remember what engine but it had 307k, original engine. On the flip side, I've pulled 5.3's and others for top end problems at under/around 80-100k. It goes both ways.

Another good example, my family owns a 67 impala SS, 327(all orig except HEI dizzy, points had to go ) 2 speed power glide. I've done work to the engine but the long block has never been apart, the insides of that engine haven't seen daylight since 67. We bought the car back in 93 in new jersey with 40k+ millage, since than the odometer has rolled twice and now sits at 17k. Two weeks ago after a tune i up drove her 60 miles on the highway and through town, the car still runs like a champ, has good compression..ext. It did burn oil at one time but it was from bad valve seals. On this flip side, i've heard stories about flat cams at 100k from back in the day.

 

[jdietschweiler]

btw a 6.0 with a cam swap should get you close to that magical 500/500 a $300 vic jr or cheaper intake and a $300 msd 6010 will switch it to carburation. I used my truck oil pan.

But that renders the swap street illegal besides defeating some of the LS's advantages.

Randy_W, SBCs last to 300K easy, my 305 with 100K still has hatch markings and no cylinder ridge. V8s tend to last pretty long in general.

I can re-fuel inject (yep it was fuel injected and i carbed it) for less than $250.

there are sites that tell you how to "fix" the harness and then you reflash the pcm.

 

[olds307 and 403]

Only the sbc had the flat cams in the 70's and crap guides too. Supposedly the sbc from the 50's and 60's were actually better. That is why I run Olds, they never had those issues and easily went 300,000 km.

 

[CamaroAdam73]

Only the sbc had the flat cams in the 70's and crap guides too. Supposedly the sbc from the 50's and 60's were actually better. That is why I run Olds, they never had those issues and easily went 300,000 km.

I believe it, no other explanation for a 47 year old sbc still running strong on original parts. Growing up in the 90's i remember making multiple trips from SC to PA in that car, gotta love it.

 

[jdietschweiler]

carbed 5.3 on a 120 shot 11.7@114

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVkk-aaf ... ata_player

mine

 

[Clone TIE Pilot]

Only the sbc had the flat cams in the 70's and crap guides too. Supposedly the sbc from the 50's and 60's were actually better. That is why I run Olds, they never had those issues and easily went 300,000 km.

I believe it, no other explanation for a 47 year old sbc still running strong on original parts. Growing up in the 90's i remember making multiple trips from SC to PA in that car, gotta love it.

I read that 80s and 90s SBCs are cast with better iron and machined much better than the 70s SBCs as well. Guess the 70s was a low point for them. To use thin shim head gaskets like the 305s you need decent flat decking. There is one company I know that still uses a 1984 Chevy service van in their fleet, their first van. It has outlasted 3 sets of newer EFI vans, go figure. Even my old 1946 farm tractor's engine has lasted 67 years with original internal parts despite being carbed and being battered and abused by it's former owners. IMO, EFI motors lasting longer is a old wives tale. It's more to do with how well made and maintained a engine is.

SBC blocks come in 3 grades, low, medium, and heavy duty. BOP blocks only came in medium grade. Caddy blocks came in HD grade.

 

[Randy_W]

When I say newer style engines outlast older style engines, generally speaking if you take a hundred '97 and up LSx engines, and a hundred first gen SBC's, you're going to get a ton more total miles from the newer design. They are built to tighter tolerances with better materials, they have the advantage of 60 years of R&D. You can also take a hundred efi engines and compare them to a hundred carbbed engines from the previous model and the efi's will out live the carbbed engines due to less gas pollution of the oil. I'm an old guy and I love the older engines, hell I have a front end loader with a mid 70's Onan twin on it 18 h.p. from 48 c.i. but I love the torque and the sound. However, a new B&S Vanguard will kick it's *ss.

 

[L92 OLDS]

Randy W,

When are you taking the plunge and going LSx with your 442? I would be interested in seeing your build assumptions.

 

[Clone TIE Pilot]

When I say newer style engines outlast older style engines, generally speaking if you take a hundred '97 and up LSx engines, and a hundred first gen SBC's, you're going to get a ton more total miles from the newer design. They are built to tighter tolerances with better materials, they have the advantage of 60 years of R&D. You can also take a hundred efi engines and compare them to a hundred carbbed engines from the previous model and the efi's will out live the carbbed engines due to less gas pollution of the oil. I'm an old guy and I love the older engines, hell I have a front end loader with a mid 70's Onan twin on it 18 h.p. from 48 c.i. but I love the torque and the sound. However, a new B&S Vanguard will kick it's *ss.

So how long do LS motors last then? SBCs commonly last 300K, do LS motors last past 300K on average? I have heard of cases of examples of both types lasting to 500K. From what I have read LSs have about the same life of 300K if you take care of them right and don't dog them like any other motor. Abuse them and you can expect about 150K or less. As I said when I pulled the head on my 86 SBC to get a snapped off exhaust bolt removed, the cylinders still had hatch mark all the way from top to bottom and no ridge that could be felt with a finger tip at 100K. You are also ignoring that later SBCs were also built to much tighter tolerances with better alloys than older SBCs while early LS1s had oil pump problems. So production run of the example motors can effect the outcome. Plus the factory can machine a block alot better than the local machine shop ever can. I doubt even a rebuilt LS motor machined at a local shop will last as long as a factory machined motor. Modern Honda motors need their decks and heads milled smoother than what most local machine shops can even do for their head gaskets to seal right. So comparing a aftermarket rebuilt motor to a factory fresh production (not crate) motor isn't fair. A factory carb doesn't pollute the oil any more than EFI if it is adjusted correctly. If it does then one has pretty poor tuning skills. I have not seen any EFI motor outlast a carbed motor in person, they last about the same mileage or run hours.

As I said, V8s usually have longer lives than other motors since they do not rev or strain as much in normal drive range. If you maintain it well and don't abuse the motor it will last longer. Keep the RPMs down, use overdrive will prolong the life of any motor. My old 46 113 CI 4 banger only pumps out 18 HP but can still outpull more modern tractors of it's size and power without stalling. Still starts up like a new motor and you would not guess the motor is nearly 70 years old and abused for most of those years. It has outlasded alot of other motor even EFI motors and people. Of course everything in it is forged steel from the factory. They could build really long lasting motors back then too. But there are many factors that can affect how long they will last.

Forgot to say, but with emission legal motor swaps. About 1/3 of the states in the US still require cars of the vintage of G bodies to pass emission inspections of some kind for unlimited mileage normal registration. You can go with historic tags to bypass inspections so you can have illegal mods like a carb LS conversion but there are cons to historic tags too depending on the state.

I have found out that there are still some sub versions of LS motors that are not supported by the aftermarket. One example are LS motors out of vans which use a different PCM and harness. You pretty much can't get the van PCM reprogramed due to lack of aftermarket support. There is a guy I know who installed a 6.0L out of a van but it has an awlful bog and stalls out sometimes because he can't get the van PCM tuned to match his performance mods. So if you get the wrong LS you could be SOL.

 

[Randy_W]

I sold the black 442 to a member here over a year and a half back, just never changed the avatar. I have an '85 Cutlass Supreme that I'm really just starting on so who knows what will end up under the hood if I ever dump the 307?