LS VS Oldschool

[Fox80]

The thing is the original post basically asked how come this guys turboed up LS makes more power than my built up Olds motor?, for the same money? Well he retained most if the stock components and slapped a used turbo on it, I have personally seen a few combos similar to that and first of all it can be very hard to fit a turbo in a car, it's cheap to plumb up a turbo for a dyno pull it can get very pricey to plumb it into a car, second of all you can probably buy that combo pretty cheàp when it's wore out, that will happen very soon. It's kind of a apples vs oranges debate, no matter what power to money spent ratio nothing beats a SBC just because of the availability of parts, it's said technology made the LS series better, it has the SBC as well, the original SBC was a 23• cast iron headed motor, now with 18,12,and even 9 degree head configurations the only thing that is actually new for the LS is cathedral intake runners and the separated runner layout and the coolant divorced intake design, when you actually compare a 18• aluminum block aluminum head SBC to a LS with similar rotating parts you will come out cheaper and equal power for the SBC, obviously if you use a salvage LS you will save money but the crank, rods, pistons are not designed by GM for any kind of real power. The carb. style intake and the ignition control system alone could get you a nice head start on a mild small block, trying to build up an OLDs motor to compete with an LS will not happen, the design flaws of the OLDs platform have kept people as a mass from using them for big power since the onset, so the aftermarket has not embraced them with the wealth if aftermarket performance parts the SBC enjoys

 

[CamaroAdam73]

That's pretty much the run down i was looking for. I still feel like its a pretty even toss up, they both retain advantages over each other.

I'm happy with my Olds 403, but when it finally wears out im hoping the LS motors WILL be yesterdays tech so it wont cost as much to play lol.

 

[L92 OLDS]

trying to build up an OLDs motor to compete with an LS will not happen, the design flaws of the OLDs platform have kept people as a mass from using them for big power since the onset, so the aftermarket has not embraced them with the wealth if aftermarket performance parts the SBC enjoys

I understand and agree with your point ONLY if you are going for a max performance build. I will make more power per dollar with a moderate 455 Olds build that should break into the 11's. If you need to go faster than that in a G body then get out the checkbook and spring for a $12,000 LS7 crate motor.

 

[Fox80]

Anubus I don't disagree with you, but you are also talking about a 455, that is also not apples to apples with a SBC, a BBC will make comparable numbers to a 455, however they have fitment problems because of the large size. Someday the LS will be the SBC in terms of aftermarket support, you can already see it coming, and the LS platform is not that old yet

 

[565bbchevy]

It seems like the LS swap is being done to everything these days but I still prefer to go to a car show and see a BOP 455 in the Gbody of the same make.
I decided instead of the LS route for my car when I win the Lotto I will put this in my car.
http://www.sonnysracingengines.com/engi ... w-for-2013

 

[Fox80]

Now that's what I'm talking about 565, that is a great idea to do with lotto winnings. I stood outside of a dyno cell when they pulled on a 725" motor and I could have listened to that thing all day long. The motors I ran in dirt pro stock were 400+" SBC "type" motors but always loved the all aluminum big block modifieds we shared the pits with, I like the route you went with your car, it must be a blast to drive the way it is

 

[olds307 and 403]

From the 80's on, the sbc was a lot better. Before the early 80's, 100,000 km was hard to get without flat cams. Also the famous puff of blue at start up. We only got 280,000 km out of a well maintained 78 sbc 350, took out the bottom end. We had a hard driven 75 Cutlass, Olds 350. Well over 300,000 km when parked. We sold it for scrap, had a slight knock. Somebody bought it and drove it another 5 years. The sbc was fair at best pre 80, plain and simple. Olds was a rock years before.

 

[85GPLef41]

From what I have heard, Targetmasters are lower quality SBCs (poorer iron and machine work) from Mexico with low 8.5 CR and restrictive cylinder heads, pretty much low output SBCs that make 190 HP. That is about the same as a stock SS 305, so not much of an improvement. Probably not the best thing to compare to a LS since Targetmasters are just cheap replacement motors to get a car running again, not performance motors. In any case, you really need to know the specs of a motor to tune it.

It is sad Qjet tuning is a dying art, but tuning can only due so much for a LO motor.

YEAH I know its low hp 350 but that's what I had when I did the "upgrade" It did pull harder then the stock 140hp 305 ever did and burnouts were decent. :wink: I know targetmaster engine got a bad rep but seeing as GM has sold a crapload, they are a better option for us budget minded buyers vs building one, plus it comes with a warranty! I did have a 76 350 that I wanted to rebuild but the machine work was a grip! The ls1 beats the old engine by a grip and I should have no problems getting to around 400+ emission "legal" horsies and 20+ mpg No happening with a sbc IMO :|

 

[jetsetw31]

The one thing about the LS motors is that they were designed with the best features of all the GM motors. Buick, Cadilliac, Chevy, Pontiac, and Olds. Looking back, all these engines acted different from each other. In torque, it was the BB's of Caddy, Olds, and Pontiac. In Hp it was BB's of Chevy and Buick. In rpm's it was the SBC, SBO, and Pontiac. In efficiency, it was Caddy, Olds, and Chevy.

The LS is great because it took from all these motors and made it work. I noticed it the first time I saw a LS motor. The heads have a definite look of the Caddy, Buick, and Olds heads, but improved. The block has similarities with Buick, Pontiac, and Caddy. Valve train is Chevy and Pontiac.
It's all in the LS if you look close.

 

[Clone TIE Pilot]

From what I have heard, Targetmasters are lower quality SBCs (poorer iron and machine work) from Mexico with low 8.5 CR and restrictive cylinder heads, pretty much low output SBCs that make 190 HP. That is about the same as a stock SS 305, so not much of an improvement. Probably not the best thing to compare to a LS since Targetmasters are just cheap replacement motors to get a car running again, not performance motors. In any case, you really need to know the specs of a motor to tune it.

It is sad Qjet tuning is a dying art, but tuning can only due so much for a LO motor.

YEAH I know its low hp 350 but that's what I had when I did the "upgrade" It did pull harder then the stock 140hp 305 ever did and burnouts were decent. :wink: I know targetmaster engine got a bad rep but seeing as GM has sold a crapload, they are a better option for us budget minded buyers vs building one, plus it comes with a warranty! I did have a 76 350 that I wanted to rebuild but the machine work was a grip! The ls1 beats the old engine by a grip and I should have no problems getting to around 400+ emission "legal" horsies and 20+ mpg No happening with a sbc IMO :|

If I spent the money for "059" 58cc Vortec heads and intake for my 305, it would make 300 emission legal HP, not sure what the MPG would be though. This is the 305 everyone calls the crapy SBC. Of course a 180 stock HP 305 with 9.5 CR will respond to mods better than a 8.5 CR LO 305. Many, but not all factory SBCs have lower CR than LS1s, higher the CR the more efficient and powerful the motor will be but costs more to set up that way. Your old Targetmaster 350 had low flow heads and 8.5 CR vs your LS1's higher flowing head and 9.8 CR, that is not a contest. A vortec headed 350 SBC with 9.8 CR would beat the crap out of a Targetmaster too. A 76 350 block is going to be poorer made than a 80s or 90s SBC block, even a 80s 305 block. No matter what, a good engine isn't going to be cheap regardless of brand or type.

As for LS swaps being legal, that can get tricky and expensive. For a LS swap to be completely legal, it must have every piece of OBD2 low emission gear swapped over from the donor car. Such as having a OBD2 port installed under your dash and wiring your service engine soon light with the LS's management system, having all the cats, and the more complex EVAP system, nothing deleted. Carb LS swaps into a G body are illegal since they disable most of the LS's emissions systems, a big no no.