New Cars Overcomplicated

[Mrockatansky]

I think that there is a reason mechanics were called mechanics and are now called technicians or service techs.

We have lost that communion with "the machine" that like Clone Tie said, was sensory and tactile.

There was a certain sense of "craft" to making a car run perfectly by using sound, feel, smell, intuition and touch. I feel that is lost these days and anyone I know that works in the car repair or performance industry here in Toronto really enjoy seeing old cars come in to be worked on.

Also, lets be honest here. Anything built before the term "design obsolescence/planned obsolescence" came into business practice was actually built to LAST an indefinite period of time and ergo typically built a hell of a lot better than things today. Durability of parts or "contrived durability" is the practice of clocking parts to fail thing or putting a limited lifespan on a part, although it makes more money (and is legal.. go figure that out) for the car companies it is ultimately frustrating for the consumer.

Hand in hand with this let's not forget that a good chunk of car companies and their dealers revenue stream is from parts and service. This is actually the bread and butter of the industry and has been for awhile.

 

[joesregalproject]

Mrockatansky,

I really don't believe in planned obsolescence. Eric the Car Guy on YouTube has a great video on it, that basically is a carbon copy of my opinion on planned obsolescence. I agree with you that almost all of the money dealerships make comes from service and parts, dealers don't make much on car sales themselves. But service is just a part of a vehicles existence. All vehicles at some point have needed some type of repair or service. Older cars are great because they are simple, and as a car guy, I love them. But the fact is, new cars are designed to be more reliable, more efficient, and safer. And they are. And the systems and designs implemented to make sure of that, are serviced differently than older cars. For example, "Tune-Ups" are pretty much a thing of the past except for spark plugs. Cold starts are no different than any other start with new cars. Computers are now a fact of life, there's no avoiding them. It was only a matter of time before they got into the auto industry. It's just the evolution of the automobile and I believe it's for the better, for the techs, and the people who drive them.

 

[ssn696]

I see cars have increasing complexity, but are also more disposable. Cheap cars not worth fixing, even if they are loaded with power everything and Internet in the dashboard.

 

[pontiacgp]

I don't think this is necessarily true. The complexity isn't for nothing. Cars certainly don't break down as much as they used to. Diagnostics has changed drastically in the past 40 years. In 1970 when your car broke down, you popped the hood and looked for obvious issues. If you didn't see anything, you started taking the engine apart. Now, the car tells you the problem area (OBDII's purpose) and leaves it to the technician to determine the solution based on observation and further investigation. Most Techs nowadays are trained to recognize pattern failures and how certain codes may mean something other than what they say. They are also taught how to use tools such as the Power Probe, which is an amazing tool that tells you exactly what is happening in the engine without having to take anything apart. With the right tools and training, new cars aren't too difficult to work on. You certainly don't have to just throw parts at cars hoping they fix the issue like we used to with pre-on board diagnostics cars. I for one find most newer cars easier to diagnose and repair than older cars. I guess it just depends on what you are familiar with.

On my 2003 Grand Cherokee when it started to run like a pos I bought a real nice OBDII scan tool to read the codes. Funny thing was there were no codes and when I tried to get a live data feed it would not see the computer. Turns out I had one dead cylinder but the reader would not tell me that. After doing a bit of reading if the crank sensor is bad it may still work but it will block the vehicle computer from talking to any OBDII scan. I know someone who had a Jeep that the dealer bought back because they could not find the electrical problem. Another friend has his Vette at the dealer for 3 months for an intermittent starting problem. I know of someone with a Mercedes SUV that has a bearing knock, no one in town will R&R the engine, even the Mercedes dealer won't touch it......the list goes on and on and is only going to get worse.

 

[pontiacgp]

Are there amy lemon car laws in CA?

no there isn't a lemon law in Canada, there is a Consumer Protection Act and there is a Motor Vehicle Arbitration Board...I'll be heading to the MVAB

 

[drogg1]

I design electronics and I still agree with you to some degree. It comes down to needing a greater understanding of electronics to repair many new vehicles and that of course is unfamiliar to most old men and is probably still mostly untaught in technician programs.

I don't think vehicles need to be so complex that the average joe cannot diagnose and repair to a certain degree. Personally, I never want to be forced to pay somebody to do something I can do myself. Especially simple maintenance.

 

[Clone TIE Pilot]

I'm gonna politely disagree with you. While mechanics didn't all used to just throw parts, I personally think it was a more common practice prior to OBD. With my Power Probe II and my laptop, misdiagnosis is very very rare. I usually work on Chevy trucks and a lot of Hondas and Toyotas. I've never had an issue changing a serpentine belt, and I find the serp belt and tensioner is a much better system than the old one belt per accessory system. Also I usually don't have any issues removing an engine to access something, although I'll admit to doing it a few more times than I'd have liked to. I've never once had to lift a vehicle's body to drop the motor from underneath. In fact, the only vehicle I've ever heard where you "have" to do this is the Ford Excursion V10s. Engine removal in the Hondas and Toyotas couldn't be easier, especially with the new ones that are coil-on-plug. It's usually 3 engine/trans mounts, a torque strut, exhaust and some wiring. No rediculous vacuum lines to deal with. The variable valve timing systems aren't as complex as people make them out to be either. Also I've never had to remove an engine to do a timing belt, although I've mostly only done them on Hondas.

I wasn't talking just about rwd, vehicles, the majority of modern cars are fwd, and the engine mounts are in the way of a serpentine belt replacement. Had a Corsica, where the tensors kept wearing out all the time chewing up the belt. One time replacing the tensor the Damn thing snapped back on my finger causing it to swell for a month, and still have the scar. Never sustained a injury from a v belt. Just about all fwd and awd vehicles require body lifting to drop the motor out of. Vacuum hoses are easy, takes me a minute to hook them all back up right because I learned what each one does. Sadly many choose to be willfully ignorant about vacuum lines, there are only 3 that go from the motor to the body. The modern enhanced evap systems modern cars use have much more complex vacuum hose routing that are sealed tight like AC lines. Also you can hook up a laptop to a CCC system and look at all the live sensor readings with winaldl.

My grandfather was a heavy equipment mechanic, and he chose that over automotive repair because he said the auto industry was a complete racket, I doubt it has improved since his time.

Have heard Mercedes only sells replacement parts to dealerships repair dept, they will not sell parts to customers.

 

[autonaut]

Well, it's different things that go wrong these days.

How many of you think these huge screens used in consoles these days will be worth a damn when they are 10 years old? Many times climate controls and other vital stuff is operated through these screens.

Also, what will happen to the Tesla's once their batteries have seen a few winters? It will probably do as my phone battery does.

Im glad i dont do cars for a living anymore.

 

[joesregalproject]

I wasn't talking just about rwd, vehicles, the majority of modern cars are fwd, and the engine mounts are in the way of a serpentine belt replacement. Had a Corsica, where the tensors kept wearing out all the time chewing up the belt. One time replacing the tensor the Damn thing snapped back on my finger causing it to swell for a month, and still have the scar. Never sustained a injury from a v belt. Just about all fwd and awd vehicles require body lifting to drop the motor out of. Vacuum hoses are easy, takes me a minute to hook them all back up right because I learned what each one does. Sadly many choose to be willfully ignorant about vacuum lines, there are only 3 that go from the motor to the body. The modern enhanced evap systems modern cars use have much more complex vacuum hose routing that are sealed tight like AC lines. Also you can hook up a laptop to a CCC system and look at all the live sensor readings with winaldl.

My grandfather was a heavy equipment mechanic, and he chose that over automotive repair because he said the auto industry was a complete racket, I doubt it has improved since his time.

Have heard Mercedes only sells replacement parts to dealerships repair dept, they will not sell parts to customers.

Again I disagree. Like I said previously, I do a lot of work on Hondas and Toyotas. I've replaced 2 B16 engines in civics, an H22A in a Prelude, a K24A1 in an AWD element, and a 2AZ-FE in a Scion and never once had to drop the motor from the bottom. I've also never had to remove an engine mount to to replace a serp belt on any of these engines either. And serp belts are a hell of a lot easier to tension than V-Belts.

Steve, that is why it is necessary to have tools that bypass the computer. Given they are quite expensive for the home mechanic, but most shops can easily afford one. I have a Picoscope for this. Plugs into my laptop and I get live feed data that is independent of the vehicles computer.

 

[Garrett1982]

My brother bought a newer BMW and when he went to do the first oil change he realized it didn't have a dipstick. He used a large measuring cup to tell how much came out so he knew what to put back in. He did that quite a few times until he realized there is one in the dash display when you go through the settings.