BUILD THREAD “The Juggernaut”

[Rktpwrd]

Rktpwrd, in your post #24, is your picture showing air bags in place of the stock coil springs and adjustable shocks in the factory location. I find this very interesting because I was thinking about bagging the rear of my El Camino. I use my El Camino as a truck sometime and your rear suspension set-up was suggested to me (by RideTech). I'm just curious as to what you think of me doing this.

Doug

Doug,
I suppose that would depend on your desired usage for the air bags in your Elco. You say you sometimes use it as a truck, are you looking to use the air bags to help support heavier loads (ie engines, etc)? or to lower the vehicle and still carry weight when needed?
For the most part, the air bag in this type of application is designed to support the weight of the vehicle, just as the factory spring does in a stock setup. That's not to say that it couldn't support additional weight placed in the bed, however you would need to increase the pressure in the rear bags to maintain your ride height. The downside of that is typically a slightly harsher ride depending on the pressure in the bags and the weight in the bed. Additionally, I would make sure to consult with the bag manufacturer that it's capable of supporting the anticipated max weight and what the max pressure rating for the particular bag you plan on using is.

I spent a few years working in a truck accessory shop, and we did air bags there. The difference being, the bags we installed on the back of the trucks were "air helper" springs. The factory leaf springs stay in place to support the vehicle, and the bags are added to help support the load and level the vehicle. In the case of your Elco, you'd be trying to accomplish both things with one bag.
Long story short, depending on the amount of weight you plan on putting in the back and the desired usage of your El Camino, I think you'd be fine.
Donovan.

 

[pencero]

Air Ride is designed to keep the rear level despite interference from potholes, uneven pavement, and road hazards. This sounds like desireable traits for practicality of daily use, but in fact a traditional suspension setup would be better for use when transporting akwardly sized and shaped items such as a bunch of folding chairs, a large bbq grill, or even a dog. In fact, it's the exact opposite. Unlike a truck that's towing its load behind, the air ride setup makes a very stiff ride optimum for getting horsepower that would have otherwise been lost to the ground while virtually preventing the bed of the elco from ever 'giving in' over uneven pavement. For comfort / speed, fantastic, but put a dog or a bbq grill in the back of a elco and you need that give a traditional suspension has. Without it, even tie downs could be excedeed by the demand of velocity placed on your straps and eject a large item such as a dog over uneven pavement. Anyway, it really depends what you're hauling. Drug smugglers use air ride because without it many cars would sit far below ride height when weighted w drugs and draw the suspicion of law enforcement. For practicality of everyday use traditional hd springs are better. Your cargo might cause the back to sit fractionally lower, but without that give the same cargo will ride more rigid. Not good, or necessary unless your moving a product that is already hidden and known to 'settle during shipping'. With no load at all, you would probably also encounter a tendency for the rear tires to lose traction over wet pavement or in snow and ice. These concerns are all concepts that don't apply to regular trucks since they're two bodies on a frame, but an elco with air ride can easily create a vacuum and eject something you are trying to haul, especially with a gust of wind or a steep grade of pavement. It is a rare phenomenon that I would not believe in had I not seen it myself first hand; dog brains all over the shoulder.

 

[Rktpwrd]

Air Ride is designed to keep the rear level despite interference from potholes, uneven pavement, and road hazards. This sounds like desireable traits for practicality of daily use, but in fact a traditional suspension setup would be better for use when transporting akwardly sized and shaped items such as a bunch of folding chairs, a large bbq grill, or even a dog. In fact, it's the exact opposite. Unlike a truck that's towing its load behind, the air ride setup makes a very stiff ride optimum for getting horsepower that would have otherwise been lost to the ground while virtually preventing the bed of the elco from ever 'giving in' over uneven pavement. For comfort / speed, fantastic, but put a dog or a bbq grill in the back of a elco and you need that give a traditional suspension has. Without it, even tie downs could be excedeed by the demand of velocity placed on your straps and eject a large item such as a dog over uneven pavement. Anyway, it really depends what you're hauling. Drug smugglers use air ride because without it many cars would sit far below ride height when weighted w drugs and draw the suspicion of law enforcement. For practicality of everyday use traditional hd springs are better. Your cargo might cause the back to sit fractionally lower, but without that give the same cargo will ride more rigid. Not good, or necessary unless your moving a product that is already hidden and known to 'settle during shipping'. With no load at all, you would probably also encounter a tendency for the rear tires to lose traction over wet pavement or in snow and ice. These concerns are all concepts that don't apply to regular trucks since they're two bodies on a frame, but an elco with air ride can easily create a vacuum and eject something you are trying to haul, especially with a gust of wind or a steep grade of pavement. It is a rare phenomenon that I would not believe in had I not seen it myself first hand; dog brains all over the shoulder.

While I apreciate that you're entitled to your opinion, I'll have to respectfully disagree. If air ride was that dangerous, it wouldn't be legal on the street. Most of the things you refer to in your reply could just as easily happen with a factory suspension.

 

[truracer20]

Air ride will work fine on an El Camino, if done properly. Air bags aren't like crappy air shocks. For the most part adding air and load doesn't change the ride a lot. In fact most high end airbag setups use sensors to alter air pressure to keep the car at an even ride height. Lincoln used air bags and with 6 people in a Continental and a cooler of beer it the trunk it rode like a dream. With just a driver it rode like a dream. Systems are available for on board adjustment with gauges to monitor pressure. You just have to get bags rated for your vehicles capacity.

 

[Rktpwrd]

Air ride will work fine on an El Camino, if done properly. Air bags aren't like crappy air shocks. For the most part adding air and load doesn't change the ride a lot. In fact most high end airbag setups use sensors to alter air pressure to keep the car at an even ride height. Lincoln used air bags and with 6 people in a Continental and a cooler of beer it the trunk it rode like a dream. With just a driver it rode like a dream. Systems are available for on board adjustment with gauges to monitor pressure. You just have to get bags rated for your vehicles capacity.

X2.
Thank you.
If the write up on my thread was actually read, it would've been noted that I originally made mention of ride height sensors and the role they play.

 

[pencero]

I don't think air ride is dangerous; Most people who put air ride on an elco are not actually going to use it to haul anything, so they would never encounter the symptoms of the phenomenon I'm trying to describe. I only mentioned it in case the guy had a dog - or one of those cheap bbq grills. I had a silverado z71 and didn't understand why Bilstein shocks made my ride so great in the city, but it was too stiff off road after that. Two bodies on a frame has a lot more give than an elco would, being just 1 body on a frame obviously. What goes up must come down; Air ride would be a fantastic comfort to people upfront in an elco, but it's not an improvement from the perspective of your cargo. Just keeping it real. If a person's cargo was going to be some bags of mulch, obviously they would care a lot less about this phenomenon than if their cargo was going to be the family St. Bernard.

 

[Rktpwrd]

I would like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that this is my build thread. Any future application questions that are directed to me will be answered thru a PM so as to avoid this thread getting hijacked further.
Thanks
Donovan

 

[oldtinsmith]

pecero, thanks for replying. I know first hand of the Air Ride bags in my coil springs. I've used them on three of my four El Camino's because I hated the air shocks (mostly the ride!). Thanks again for your input!
Donovan, when I talked to Ride Tech (I think the man was Josh) he said if I gave them the information they needed, they could "fit" a bag for those needs (pretty much what you said earlier). Your commitment to research compelled me to ask you opinion. I'm an old man on a fixed income and I'm just doing a little research of my own,,,LOL. Thanks for your input too!

Doug

Sorry, I replied before your last post! Will do PM's in the future!

 

[Rktpwrd]

pecero, thanks for replying. I know first hand of the Air Ride bags in my coil springs. I've used them on three of my four El Camino's because I hated the air shocks (mostly the ride!). Thanks again for your input!
Donovan, when I talked to Ride Tech (I think the man was Josh) he said if I gave them the information they needed, they could "fit" a bag for those needs (pretty much what you said earlier). Your commitment to research compelled me to ask you opinion. I'm an old man on a fixed income and I'm just doing a little research of my own,,,LOL. Thanks for your input too!

Doug

Anytime sir. I work too hard for my money to run out and spend it foolishly without doing my research. I diligently research all my purchases to make sure I'm fully informed before I buy. Hope it was helpful.

 

[Rktpwrd]

The next section that's been requested to be covered is the frame and all the associated work that's been done with it. This is a major section for me to cover, so it may take a couple a couple of days for me to get thru it all. They say pictures are worth a thousand words, so I think the best way for me to cover everything is to post a picture, then have a short description of what you're looking at underneath it.
First, the back story...

A second 1980 Cutlass Supreme was purchased in 2010 as a parts car for the white car. In retrospect, it was a shame to tear down this car, because, other than some rust on the quarters, it was a solid unmolested car and should've been built on its own. But, it was sacrificed to make the white car that much better.
The frame on the white car had suffered the usual dreaded G body rot in the rear framerails, and was crudely repaired by my grandfather and I some years earlier when I restored the car in the 90's. Knowing this, I planned on replacing the frame with a better one this time around. When I went to look at the parts car, (affectionately referred to thereafter as the "Brown Bomber"), I had 2 major areas that I was most interested in:
A solid frame, and an undamaged header panel.
The 1980 Supreme header as some of you may know, is a one year, one model only item, and becoming extremely difficult to come by in these parts. Happily, the Brown Bomber had both of these areas in mint shape. A trip to the bank machine, and $1500 later, it was mine. After tearing the car down and selling off everything that wasn't needed, I was left with the bare frame. The person that had purchased the car originally in '80 must have had the car under coated at the dealer, because the frame was in almost immaculate shape. I really couldn't believe my luck. So, that brings us up to the interesting part...

This is what I started with.

A lot of the undercoating had long since chipped or fallen off resulting in the typical rusty surface, but the metal was solid and all there in the crucial places.

After taking some measurements, I went to a local industrial steel fabrication shop, and had them bend up some 1/8" steel plate to weld in for boxing sections. While waiting for these to be made, I attacked the frame cleaning off all the rust down to clean bare metal.

One of my pet peeves is the multitude of unused holes found on these cars, either on the frame or the body. Knowing that I was fully boxing in the frame, I made it my mission to weld up EVERY unused hole, in order to keep dust, dirt and water from getting trapped inside.

While I was at it, I chose to fully weld in and blend the factory joined sections for a cleaner appearance.

Additional welding was done to the reinforcements inside the frame at the body mounts before the boxing sections went on.