Valvoline 10-40 Where did it go???????

[vanrah]

Greetings Guys; One of my favorite topics, oil. First ZDDP helps carry load, doesn't mater if ya got a roller or flat tappet cam. It's just flat tappet cams carry Big loads WithOut having Big springs so it helps a bunch. But if ya got a hefty springs on a roller cam ya still need some extra ZDDP! It's LOAD, Pounds per Square Inch guys. Plus the factor of scrubbing (flat tappet cams, piston skirts & rings rubbin' the cylinders, push rods workin' the rocker hole, oil pump gears rubbing the case, Oh rod & crank bearings tryin' to rub the crank. Did I forget anything? ZDDP helps carry load period. What the government & our grand kids don't like is it isn't good for us to breath. Plus it tends to shorten the life of ox sensors & cats, contributing bad stuff to the air we like so much. That being said I still want it for my engines. No one has mentioned Driven oil by Joe Gibbs? So I will, they make it for us hot rod guys & ya it's expensive. I would still buy Valvoline if I could get it. I'm a great fan of their VR 1 synthetic, special order only. If ya rev your engines over 4000 RPM please don't run Shell Rotella, it does NOT have the anti foaming additives for higher RPM use like the performance oils, air bubbles will not support load. I'm a mixer, so I mix oils & I use only synthetics once the engine has finished two oil changes with break in oil. And yes you could use Rotella with a extra bit of ZDDP for break in & save a buck. But once the engine is past it's second round with non synthetic (during break in) I go to full synthetic. Now you'll now that I'm nuts, in the Bronze Brick I like to run a 17-18W - 45 & as it wears over time I'll go to 20W - 50. When it was new & fresh I preferred 15W - 40, so I mix. And on top of that I even mix brands. As mentioned I like Valvoline VR 1, but it doesn't have the best additive package for long term use (it's racing oil). So I'll only use 2 quarts. Then the Driven by Joe Gibbs, 3 quarts as it has great anti foaming properties & a military grade additive for long term storage. And of course us Northern guys tend to store our cars for some months during the snowie time. And last one quart of Mobil 1 15W - 50 cause I just like it. Mixing viscosities to arrive at my 17W - 45. Now you ask what do I run in the GuTOo as it is 100% OE stock inside. Well I mix of course, 3 quart of Ls -30 (5W - 30) Driven by Joe Gibbs as it has one eye blink of ZDDP more than your normal street oil. A quart of HR-3 & HR-4 all synthetic, that way I get a snitch more ZDDP & some of that storage additive I like so much. And last one quart of Mobil One Extended 5W - 30 ending up with a viscosity of 7W - 33. It has 42,000 miles on the clock now & as it gets near 60,000 I'll move up to a 10W - 35-40 range. Take care Ole' Bob.

 

[vanrah]

Ps: Maybe I should mention oil's first job is to keep the metal parts from touching each other. And that doesn't alway work out to be the case. And as the oil is doing its 1st job it is getting worked out so it gets hot, plus the parts that aren't suppose to touch & the combustion process generate lots of heat. So oil's second job is to carry the heat away. To do this it has to flow fast enough so the metal parts don't melt. So ya don't want the oil to be too thick (viscosity) or it won't flow fast enough. On the other hand if ya got lots of clearance it has to be thick enough to fill the void. We use to build race engines with lots of clearance. Break in was 10 to 20 minutes maybe if the engine was lucky. we would start with 40 weight oil & after a few races move to 50 weight. Few loose engines are built now days, every thing is supper tight hence thin oil & lots of it being flushed over the bearings. Think of the LOADs these modern engines are carrying on the internal parts. Back to the subject, "Anyway I sure miss VR-1" in the stores. I hope I put some light on oil, Ole' Bob

 

[buzz77]

How's the Amsoil with zddp? I've been using that

 

[pontiacgp]

That's what I thought but actually most cam manufacturers will request oil with ZDDP additive anyway. I have a Howards hydraulic roller, Howards wants ZDDP in it and my local shop recommended me Maxima Racing oil which has 2x the ZDDP than most oils that advertise having it. The dirt burner guys also use the additive in their roller engines.

Did you ever inquire with Howards to see why they require the ZDDP with a roller cam?

Here is a good read regarding ZDDP...

"
Flat tappet cams have a taper to their lobes while the lifter has a slightly convex shape to its foot. The lifter has essentially a sliding motion over the lobe to which the combination of the lobe and lifter foot shapes cause the lifter to rotate about its long axis in its bore. This motion prevents the formation of an oil wedge or at least a consistently good enough wedge as happens inside the bearing clearances of the crank and cam bearings. When moving beyond anything more than very mild lobe profiles and low rate valve springs wear of the lobe and lifter becomes a large issue even when both are suitably surface hardened. Through the 1950's and early 60's many types of dry lubes like graphite, moly-disulfide and Zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) among others were tried as a means of imbedding a high pressure lubricant into the pores of the lobes and lifters that would provide continuing lubrication when the oil was squeezed out. Of all that was tested ZDDP remained in suspension with the oil where other chemistries tended to coagulate forming groups of molecules large enough that the oil filter gradually took them out of suspension with the oil. When this happens and there is no ZDDP the lifter just begins to scrape along the lobe till the rubbing surfaces are worn away.

A roller lifter's, roller rotates over a lobe that is not tapered which a contact patch that is constantly renewed like a tire rolling on pavement. The scraping motion of a flat tappet on the fine contact edge of the tapered lobe and convex lifter face is replaced by a rolling contact patch. The loads on the contact patch are very high but rather than scraping the surface off these loads want to unwind the surface material giving it a shape the reverse of the lobe. This can be thought of as using an English Wheel to shape sheet metal into curved body shapes. Neither oil nor additives are of any benefit in stopping this. The control must come from stronger materials and surface treatments that provide the cam lobe with enough surface hardness and strength to resist the unraveling forces that would unwind the lobe surface. These stronger base materials and surface treatments are why roller cams are so much more expensive, plus all the additional gadgetry needed to keep the lifter's roller aimed into the direction of lobe rotation."

 

[olds307 and 403]

I use motorcycle oil SG(Castrol) through SM mixed with the old Quaker State Defy which was SL rated. I like the Mystic 0W40 or 10W40 full synthetic motorcycle oil, it is SL rated and quite affordable. Our Coop brand Motorcycle oil is 5W50, full synthetic and SM rated. We carry 10W40 conventional and 20W50 in a synthetic blend but all SN rated and soon to be SN plus, we got the first shipment of that last week. Almost all diesel oil is SM or even SN rated so you get extra detergent with no extra ZDDP, not good. The only VR1 carried by Walmart here 20W50 and SN rated, no good. I know CAM oil made by BOSS in Calgary has a 15W40 with 1600 ppm ZDDP and good anti corrosion additives, basically designed for older cars that sit half the year. I may have to go that route, our local parts store carries some Boss Lubricant's.

 

[Local Hero]

This past Christmas Eve I happened to be at AutoZone and noticed that Valvoline 10W-40 was clearance priced. It was around a buck and a half for quarts and right at $10 for the 5 quart jug. I never asked why, but I figured not too many people run it anymore so they're clearing it out...

....and I helped them do that. I bought all that they had. Then on my way out for dinner and church later on I stopped at three other stores and cleaned them out too. Now I have a huge crate in the attic of my shop filled with all of it. It's enough to last me a while since 5 of the 6 cars in my fleet run just fine on the stuff.

 

[bracketchev1221]

I ran the Shell Rotella in my race engines, 300 lbs on the seat, 750 open spring pressure open for the last 8 years. Engines looked new inside when I took them apart. Last engine was 15:1 compression and 980 hp at 7200 rpm. Shifted at 7500 and crossed at 7700.

 

[-83MONTESS-]

Did you ever inquire with Howards to see why they require the ZDDP with a roller cam?

No idea why but it's common among different builders. Every engine regardless of flat tappet or roller that comes into the local shop is recommended a high zinc oil. For sub 400hp daily drivers I bet it's not an issue. I'd rather be safe than sorry.

 

[1bad79]

Here’s my .02 cents and I’m not trying to sound like a dick but if you build you engine correctly and with quality parts use a modern roller cam when possible oil brand and type will become irrelevant you will be able to run what is on the shelf period. I run what the Fock ever in my olds and have no issues whatsoever and I make sure to do you guy proud and scare the Fock out of my wife every time I drive it. The other thing is how long do you think you engine should last? Remember you built it to beat the sh*t out of I’m already planning my next build and I’ve only driven my car 2 summers and 10000 miles I’m board and want a stroker bbo

 

[DRIVEN]

I actually agree with 1bad79 on most points. Unsolicited editorial alert; Oil quality has probably never been better, its just that the "old" additives are no longer added. Modern engines are a thing of wonder in regards to machining tolerances, friction management, and vapor control. That's why manufacturers have 10,000 mile oil change intervals and the engines go 2-300k while getting twice the mpg and making 3x the power than what they did during the '60s and '70s.
When I was going through an automotive program 20+ years ago one of my instructors showed a training film from the '70s on the finer points of doing rings, bearings, and a valve lap on a 327 (or maybe 350) as regular maintenance every 50,000 miles. It was just expected back then and a car was "worn out" at 100k.
So, to 1bad79's point, roller cams take away most of the ZDDP worry. If you run a flat tappet, just budget an extra $12 for a bottlen of additive with each oil change. Plus, most of us aren't going to be putting 100k on whatever engine we build before we get bored and tear it down to refresh and reconfigure.
Our old engines are typically pretty sloppy and forgiving. In my experience, its less important which brand or viscosity you use, so much as how often it's changed. They'll live a long time on anything from 5W20 to 20W50 as long as it's clean and full. Just spend the extra $12.