VIN tampering

[Canon_Mutant]

This relates to an older car I'm interested in but I've noticed some VIN stuff going on with some of these older cars being sold by "reputable" collector dealers.

Notice how the 4 down in the serial number clearly looks like a 4 but the 2nd, 3rd, digits that signify whether it's a real 442 don't? If they can stamp a clear 4 in the serial number, and frankly all the other numbers, why can't they stamp a clear 4 up in 2 and 3 where it matters? This naturally happens to be the VIN on the one I'm interested in. Looking at others, actual 442s tend to be a LOT more clear than this. For a not quite all original actual 442 with the right block, wrong heads, wrong wheels, few other minor things, non standard gray/silver color, which I kinda like, the price is about right for it if it was an original 442. If it is just a ground up clone then it's probably $15-20K too much.

Worrying about nothin?

Good one first . . .

The one I'm interested in . . .

The car . . . pretty sharp!

 

[Qdub24]

Those VIN tags look suspect to me, but I'm no expert.

 

[565bbchevy]

The car is very sharp, I am no expert on vin tags either but knowing how cars went together back then I would almost say the second vin looks more original.
To me on both vins the last 4 appears to be a different style than the first pair of fours, more noticeable on the first vin though.

 

[fleming442]

I'd be EXTREMELY suspect of any car being passed off as a w30. They are very difficult to document. Judging from the pics, it's just another flipper trying to pass off a clone.

 

[oldsmobile joe]

i recommend finding and paying an expert from the local olds club to look it over.
back in the 60s the factory started stamping the frames with the vin to help fight car theft and chop shops. so it the frame is original, the number on it should match the number on the dash. where is this number? i don't know, but an olds club expert would know.
looks like 71 model, in 72 the 442s were down graded from an acutral model with its own vin code to an option package.
i like the car you chose, good luck, joe

 

[online170]

A few comments, but firstly, with that much money, you can never be too thorough.

1) If someone is claiming it to be a 442, then they should expect a ton of documentation verification, and a "reputable" dealer would have already started the process and done most of it for you. If they havent, thats OK, but any hesitation or unwillingness to let you conduct your own verification is a major red flag. It absolutely has to have the buildsheet, if not, walk away. There is usually a registry for these types of cars, and people willing to do a deep dive search for you on this stuff. Buick has their GSX, Ford has their Boss, MOPAR has their HEMI etc... All these have registries where you can send in documentation and have it verified.

2) Cross referencing is your friend. Match the VIN, body TAG, and driveline numbers as best as possible. Non-numbers matching engine/trans/diff greatly reduce the value of the car. Look for clues, usually people who do clones don't go the full mile, unless it was done to concours level. There is always something off about the car, it might be a gauge cluster, or an option, or part somewhere that gives it away.

3) Forensic analysis. Its very difficult to remove something, and replace it then make it look like it has aged 50 years and was never tampered with. Look closely at the rivets, if they look like they were installed in 1970, thats excellent, and work backwards from there. The VIN is in a high corrosion location, so some pitting is to be expected. But everything should look "similar" around it. If you have patches of rust everywhere, but then the numbers that count are perfect unpitted material, then thats a red flag.

4) Imagine yourself trying to sell this car. The price you ask, will be directly proportional to how well you can prove its a real 442. If its a real 442, but they cannot prove it with documentation, then in today's market, its not a real 442. Be thorough, dont be shy of paperwork, and buy with confidence. Dont shell out to bridge the gap for insurances they cannot provide with paperwork. It all has to check out.


This is one of the reasons ill never be into the museum piece type cars. In today's market it comes down to paperwork, and alot of times its missing.

 

[DRIVEN]

I'm 100% with online170 on this. If you are buying a "special" car, you're essentially paying for the documentation and provenance. If you're buying for fun you'd be paying clone price with no expectation on later ROI.
Whether the VIN tag is legit, looks okay to me. I'm no expert though and I'd be interested in pile of documentation.

 

[ssn696]

That was a lot of work to turn 1s into 4s and have it look so obvious. I'm curious what a '31187...' translates into.

 

[Ribbedroof]

There was no 31187 on Olds Vins, second digit would have been either a 3 or 4, depending on series

I would want to inspect the car personally, but I have seen some pretty sloppy VIN plates on cars of this era, including grossly misaligned character groups. It does appear to have very poorly formed 4s.

 

[ssn696]

There was no 31187 on Olds Vins, second digit would have been either a 3 or 4, depending on series.

So there is hope for the seller...