What is with all the old gen bashing?
- Thread starter Clone TIE Pilot
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Perhaps, but how often does, say, an ignition module have to be replaced, compared to replacing points.
I can see the ups and downs of both new and old tech. I don't think any particularly needs to be bashed. Newer tech SHOULD be better, but it can also be pricier.
And, then in some cases, why not blend old and new? Say, when, oh, I don't know HOW many people here have already done, combining overdrive transmissions, SEFI, etc., on an Olds 455 for example? Or if anyone's ever gone DIS or coil-on-plug with something like that?
Everything has its place, and everyone has their preference.
Heck, at one point of minor insanity, I wondered how practical a 3300 V6 (that's not a typo, I really mean the 3300) would be in a G-body... Or an Ecotec in an X-body (hey, they had the Iron Duke in the 1978 Pontiac Phoenix from the factory, is the Ecotec that big of a stretch?) etc
I can see the ups and downs of both new and old tech. I don't think any particularly needs to be bashed. Newer tech SHOULD be better, but it can also be pricier.
And, then in some cases, why not blend old and new? Say, when, oh, I don't know HOW many people here have already done, combining overdrive transmissions, SEFI, etc., on an Olds 455 for example? Or if anyone's ever gone DIS or coil-on-plug with something like that?
Everything has its place, and everyone has their preference.
Heck, at one point of minor insanity, I wondered how practical a 3300 V6 (that's not a typo, I really mean the 3300) would be in a G-body... Or an Ecotec in an X-body (hey, they had the Iron Duke in the 1978 Pontiac Phoenix from the factory, is the Ecotec that big of a stretch?) etc
I believe in the knowlege theory as well.... case in point;
about a year ago, I was talking to one of my customers that does alot of performance mods on different cars (his last was a triton v-10 in a datsun 260z, just to do it), and mentioned that I was thinking of some mods on the wife's mustang in the near future. He started saying we could do a remapping, or flash, yadaa-yadaa-yadda, and I let him know that I really didn't understand all the newer tech, and that he was talking to a guy whose training barely passed carbs and points....
he looked at me with all seriousness and said "carbs? those are too technical, I don't know anything about them"....
I'll take my little gen II sbc with the vortec heads and quadrajet any day!
about a year ago, I was talking to one of my customers that does alot of performance mods on different cars (his last was a triton v-10 in a datsun 260z, just to do it), and mentioned that I was thinking of some mods on the wife's mustang in the near future. He started saying we could do a remapping, or flash, yadaa-yadaa-yadda, and I let him know that I really didn't understand all the newer tech, and that he was talking to a guy whose training barely passed carbs and points....
he looked at me with all seriousness and said "carbs? those are too technical, I don't know anything about them"....
I'll take my little gen II sbc with the vortec heads and quadrajet any day!
I converted my old 1946 tractor from points to ignition module with a kit they sell. Other than the points there isn't anything I would want to alter on it, it is a very reliable design despite being so old. Just about everything has room for improvements. But it sucks to have people calling your motor choice bad because it is a older design. You don't hear gun guys trash talk older firearms, only bad failure prone ones. Like a PS90 owner insulting Uzis or Sterlings for being older designs.
But as King_v pointed out, alot of newer tech can easily be applied to older engines, like with my tractor. Such as more modern vortec style heads for SBCs. People have even adapted LT1 EFI onto gen 1 SBCs. You can put an lockup OD trans behind just about any motor. Many people are too concerned about just the engine and not the whole drivetrain or the whole car, it is like a team and all the members (parts) need to work together for the best results.
The people who act and believe that old stuff sucks will get a taste of their own medicine in 20 to 30 years when the next big thing renders LSX outdated to the next generation of hotrodders, maybe sooner. Everything becomes outdated sooner or later, it's why I just don't care about being modern or up to date. But I guess some of the old tech hate may be from people who don't really like old cars or machines that much to begin with. That a older car body is just a cheap means torwards an end, deep down they rather own a new sports car. Not so much from enjoying a older car because it is from a different time. That is not to say every LS swapper is like that, just the bashers.
1evilregal, I have heard tuner guys call carburetors weird voodoo. I guess it is just a large generation gap.
But as King_v pointed out, alot of newer tech can easily be applied to older engines, like with my tractor. Such as more modern vortec style heads for SBCs. People have even adapted LT1 EFI onto gen 1 SBCs. You can put an lockup OD trans behind just about any motor. Many people are too concerned about just the engine and not the whole drivetrain or the whole car, it is like a team and all the members (parts) need to work together for the best results.
The people who act and believe that old stuff sucks will get a taste of their own medicine in 20 to 30 years when the next big thing renders LSX outdated to the next generation of hotrodders, maybe sooner. Everything becomes outdated sooner or later, it's why I just don't care about being modern or up to date. But I guess some of the old tech hate may be from people who don't really like old cars or machines that much to begin with. That a older car body is just a cheap means torwards an end, deep down they rather own a new sports car. Not so much from enjoying a older car because it is from a different time. That is not to say every LS swapper is like that, just the bashers.
1evilregal, I have heard tuner guys call carburetors weird voodoo. I guess it is just a large generation gap.
1evilregal said:I believe in the knowlege theory as well.... case in point;
about a year ago, I was talking to one of my customers that does alot of performance mods on different cars (his last was a triton v-10 in a datsun 260z, just to do it), and mentioned that I was thinking of some mods on the wife's mustang in the near future. He started saying we could do a remapping, or flash, yadaa-yadaa-yadda, and I let him know that I really didn't understand all the newer tech, and that he was talking to a guy whose training barely passed carbs and points....
he looked at me with all seriousness and said "carbs? those are too technical, I don't know anything about them"....
I'll take my little gen II sbc with the vortec heads and quadrajet any day!
If he can't understand a carb or how to fix one he shouldn't be doing fuel mapping on fuel injection
King_V said:
Replacing points was part of regular scheduled maintenance, because they wore out over time. The heel would wear down against the distributor cam and the contacts would pit as miles rolled by. Something you won't get with ignition modules, but back in the day fixing points was well within the scope of anyone who understood how a gasoline engine worked, and it was no trouble to carry a spare set and a condenser in case they failed out on a trip - it happened occasionally, although very rarely on a well maintained car.
Roger.
I like the LS stuff. I think the days of dirt cheap LS engines are numbered. I can say that the sbc is going strong at my local track. I think at least 60% of all the bracket cars there are sbc powered.
1bad79 said:1evilregal said:I believe in the knowlege theory as well.... case in point;
about a year ago, I was talking to one of my customers that does alot of performance mods on different cars (his last was a triton v-10 in a datsun 260z, just to do it), and mentioned that I was thinking of some mods on the wife's mustang in the near future. He started saying we could do a remapping, or flash, yadaa-yadaa-yadda, and I let him know that I really didn't understand all the newer tech, and that he was talking to a guy whose training barely passed carbs and points....
he looked at me with all seriousness and said "carbs? those are too technical, I don't know anything about them"....
I'll take my little gen II sbc with the vortec heads and quadrajet any day!
If he can't understand a carb or how to fix one he shouldn't be doing fuel mapping on fuel injection
that's my point - the newer generation knows the computer stuff, while I grew up with the "old school" equipment... (damn, when did I get old enough to learn on this stuff they call "old school"... :|
@ mikep... just remember this, the rat rod revival is still going strong, and old tech (flatheads,generators,and magnetos) are cool again! us sbc guys'll have our day in the sun again someday!
I hear ya Clone... its as I said in that other thread.... The push is on to make the LS engine series the top dog in gearhead media circles, so when something is repeated over and over again by any mass media outlet, IT MUST BE TRUE and is simply what people are going to jump on and follow the flock. Granted, LS engines have been around for awhile now, the prices have come down, & the aftermarket is focusing on them... the Gen 2 LTI has already been largely forgotten.
IMHO, the traditional Detroit/Dearborn/Kenosha V8 Trashathon is just an evolution of the urban myth saying that X motor is crap... like the trusty old Chevy 305 is a worthless piece of crap nonsense. Car magazines and TV shows made the 305 sound like one of the most worthless hunks of iron ever created, marginally better than the Caddy 4-6-8. Yeah... Sure, a 305 is not exactly a top pick for drag racing, but it is a very durable engine, capable of respectable numbers for a street driven car, & can be built for a lot less than people claim...especially if its an '85-87 LG4 or an L69... Its not going to beat a 350 dollar for dollar, mainly because of the 45 extra cube advantage, but good 305 cores are very cheap vs 350 cores... My '83 Monte had 250K miles on the clock, original LG4 305 & factory TH350... trans was rebuilt at about 180K according to the receipts, and it needed a valve job and cam/lifters at 230K. Engine wasnt blowing smoke and still had pretty good compression across all 8 cylinders... says a lot about the engine.
As for the leak comments...Sure as hell, yeah they leak... I have yet to see a V8-pick-a-brand that doesn't leak a little something from somewhere after 50k... modern cars just have cramped engine bays/limited visibility and more structure under them to catch anything from dripping onto the ground.
Same type of thing can be seen in vehicle ratings... "Construed Reports". They are pretty good at many things, but when it comes to vehicles, the bias is very palpable.... they rate "X" vehicle as crappy because it doesn't have a cup holder or there is audible engine noise when you step on the gas. People miss the stupidity of the basis for their arguements (ratings), & base their opinion on the rating itself... that one thing becomes its own entity and all else is ignored... hence the Fantastical Toyota Reliability Myth. A myth that still continues despite the Tacoma-Rot-In-Half-Buyback of almost 10 years worth of production, or the multiple recalls of millions of their cars and trucks built over a 15 year span...recalled for very flawed safety and design issues. And yet, if you ask people, at least 3 out of 10 will claim Toyota makes a great product and some will toss in a "better than Detroit" comment as proof. Some will explain they have only driven a GM vehicle once.... It was a "X" model, used, with a ton of miles, in college, & beat on it/never changed the oil... in other words, they base their whole opinion on a dead horse and 15+ year old stereotypes of American made cars.... Don't get me wrong, Detroit made quite a bit of junk and QC was lacking at times, but there are and have been plenty of "Construed Report" Top Picks and high rated vehicles that end up in the scrapyards fairly early in their life... ahem, Vee Dubya, ahem, cough, Nis-cough-san, Hy-Aaaachundai...etc. Those junks won't be collected or coveted years from now either.
As great as the advances in technology are, there are huge downsides as well, a steep electronic/programming learning curve, and tolerances that leave very little room for error... plus the large number of "extras".
IMHO, the traditional Detroit/Dearborn/Kenosha V8 Trashathon is just an evolution of the urban myth saying that X motor is crap... like the trusty old Chevy 305 is a worthless piece of crap nonsense. Car magazines and TV shows made the 305 sound like one of the most worthless hunks of iron ever created, marginally better than the Caddy 4-6-8. Yeah... Sure, a 305 is not exactly a top pick for drag racing, but it is a very durable engine, capable of respectable numbers for a street driven car, & can be built for a lot less than people claim...especially if its an '85-87 LG4 or an L69... Its not going to beat a 350 dollar for dollar, mainly because of the 45 extra cube advantage, but good 305 cores are very cheap vs 350 cores... My '83 Monte had 250K miles on the clock, original LG4 305 & factory TH350... trans was rebuilt at about 180K according to the receipts, and it needed a valve job and cam/lifters at 230K. Engine wasnt blowing smoke and still had pretty good compression across all 8 cylinders... says a lot about the engine.
As for the leak comments...Sure as hell, yeah they leak... I have yet to see a V8-pick-a-brand that doesn't leak a little something from somewhere after 50k... modern cars just have cramped engine bays/limited visibility and more structure under them to catch anything from dripping onto the ground.
Same type of thing can be seen in vehicle ratings... "Construed Reports". They are pretty good at many things, but when it comes to vehicles, the bias is very palpable.... they rate "X" vehicle as crappy because it doesn't have a cup holder or there is audible engine noise when you step on the gas. People miss the stupidity of the basis for their arguements (ratings), & base their opinion on the rating itself... that one thing becomes its own entity and all else is ignored... hence the Fantastical Toyota Reliability Myth. A myth that still continues despite the Tacoma-Rot-In-Half-Buyback of almost 10 years worth of production, or the multiple recalls of millions of their cars and trucks built over a 15 year span...recalled for very flawed safety and design issues. And yet, if you ask people, at least 3 out of 10 will claim Toyota makes a great product and some will toss in a "better than Detroit" comment as proof. Some will explain they have only driven a GM vehicle once.... It was a "X" model, used, with a ton of miles, in college, & beat on it/never changed the oil... in other words, they base their whole opinion on a dead horse and 15+ year old stereotypes of American made cars.... Don't get me wrong, Detroit made quite a bit of junk and QC was lacking at times, but there are and have been plenty of "Construed Report" Top Picks and high rated vehicles that end up in the scrapyards fairly early in their life... ahem, Vee Dubya, ahem, cough, Nis-cough-san, Hy-Aaaachundai...etc. Those junks won't be collected or coveted years from now either.
As great as the advances in technology are, there are huge downsides as well, a steep electronic/programming learning curve, and tolerances that leave very little room for error... plus the large number of "extras".
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