What makes an LS better than a small block?

[vanrah]

Greetings LukeZ & all; First basic principle, a engine is just an air pump! So that being said the Ls is 60+ years of accumulated engineering knowledge. The bottom end is JUST a scaled down Ford FE side oiler, nearly indestructible? And like previously mentioned, they oil just good enough, most of the time? What makes them so amazing is the heads & rocker ratio's. Big block rocker ratios with small block (Ford ?) packaging. In the all aluminum (block & heads) state the Bang per Lb is so far ahead of the rest of the engines available they just can't be over looked. And any weight you can get off the front end is a +++. Better traction at the drag strip, better balance for auto X events & on the road course of life. As an older guy I don't care for the fact that that ya need a computer to work on them. But for you younger guys that's a plus I guess? And last when ya open the hood their butt ugly. But then again I grew up in the 60's & think that the ole' "W" motors (ya I know engines), Big Block Rats, Cross Ram & Hemi Mopars and Ford FE Hi-Rise dual quad engines are things of beauty. Subjective of course! So if ya can score one reasonable go for it, ya won't be sorry. Ole' Bob.

 

[LukeZ]

Seems like almost every answer so far has proclaimed how SBC heads pale in comparison to modern heads. So there's no aftermarket Gen I heads that even compete?

 

[LukeZ]

I think I agree with a what some people have said; that both engines have ups and downs. Newer is not tantamount to better, but neither is older. I don't think there is an answer to which engine style is 'better'.

 

[motorheadmike]

Until someone can prove to me that they have a STOCK bottom end Gen I SBC making 1000rwhp; it is pretty clear that the LS-series is vastly superior.

EDIT: Closest I have ever seen: https://www.theturboforums.com/thre...never-did!-Go-figure-)-Grenade-part-2-to-come

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-0711-1988-pontiac-firebird/

 

[LukeZ]

Until someone can prove to me that they have a STOCK bottom end Gen I SBC making 1000rwhp; it is pretty clear that the LS-series is vastly superior.

EDIT: Closest I have ever seen: https://www.theturboforums.com/thre...never-did!-Go-figure-)-Grenade-part-2-to-come

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-0711-1988-pontiac-firebird/

Do you have links to a couple stock bottom end LS engines making 1000rwhp like you imply?

And that doesn't make it better. What is the driveablility of a 1000wrhp motor? Have fun driving something like that in the rain.

 

[Streetbu]

Do you have links to a couple stock bottom end LS engines making 1000rwhp like you imply?

And that doesn't make it better. What is the driveablility of a 1000wrhp motor? Have fun driving something like that in the rain.

It isn't about driving it in the rain, it proves that the LS motors are over built and can handle that much power without upgrading to a forged crank, rods, pistons, etc. That means the engine IS better because it is designed better.

 

[Clone TIE Pilot]

Many later SBCs came with roller cams, with 880 Vortec SBCs being the best factory SBC. With 2 vs 4 bolt mains, there are arguments wither 4 bolts really are stronger or weaker. 4 bolts originally came out in weaker cast iron SBCs. Aluminum is weaker than cast iron and why LS1s have 6 bolt mains. Aluminum blocks are too weak for towing which is why trucks still use cast iron.

One of the reasons LS last so long is they are designed to run warm at 200 degrees, which can also be applied to SBCs. 160 t stats are really outdated, and Ford figured it out back in the 60s.

While you can, but not always get decent deals on used LS engines, installing them into a old car is not cheap. Then there are legality issues too. A carb LS is automatically illegal in any G body as it disables many of the obd2 emission controls. Even keeping the Efi, a LS swap can still be illegal because the obd2 enhanced evap system is not compatible with factory g body gas tanks. The only legal LS swap are the expensive crate Erod kits. Then there is custom exhaust, custom driveshaft. Some of the newer auto transmissions for LS engines require expanding the trans tunnel.

Another issue is parts, both replacement and performance LS parts are more expensive than SBC parts. Adapter parts and swap kits are also expensive. Then to tune a LS engine with EFI requires $650 or more tuning software and training. Otherwise you have to take the car to a tuner shop which also won't be cheap. Mail away tunes are a crapshoot and aftermarket self leaning efi kits can months to self program themselves, and not always correctly. Overall, a LS swap is a large investment and requires learning complete new technology.

I read a car magazine article last year that went on how great the base V6 engines in the new Camaros are. That it makes more horsepower and torque stock than LS1s and 5.3s and that LS1 5.3 guys need to wake up and realize they are already becoming dated and should look at base V6 Camaro swaps in the near future. Progress is a b*tch at times.

 

[LukeZ]

Many later SBCs came with roller cams, with 880 Vortec SBCs being the best factory SBC. With 2 vs 4 bolt mains, there are arguments wither 4 bolts really are stronger or weaker. 4 bolts originally came out in weaker cast iron SBCs. Aluminum is weaker than cast iron and why LS1s have 6 bolt mains. Aluminum blocks are too weak for towing which is why trucks still use cast iron.

One of the reasons LS last so long is they are designed to run warm at 200 degrees, which can also be applied to SBCs. 160 t stats are really outdated, and Ford figured it out back in the 60s.

While you can, but not always get decent deals on used LS engines, installing them into a old car is not cheap. Then there are legality issues too. A carb LS is automatically illegal in any G body as it disables many of the obd2 emission controls. Even keeping the Efi, a LS swap can still be illegal because the obd2 enhanced evap system is not compatible with factory g body gas tanks. The only legal LS swap are the expensive crate Erod kits. Then there is custom exhaust, custom driveshaft. Some of the newer auto transmissions for LS engines require expanding the trans tunnel.

Another issue is parts, both replacement and performance LS parts are more expensive than SBC parts. Adapter parts and swap kits are also expensive. Then to tune a LS engine with EFI requires $650 or more tuning software and training. Otherwise you have to take the car to a tuner shop which also won't be cheap. Mail away tunes are a crapshoot and aftermarket self leaning efi kits can months to self program themselves, and not always correctly. Overall, a LS swap is a large investment and requires learning complete new technology.

I read a car magazine article last year that went on how great the base V6 engines in the new Camaros are. That it makes more horsepower and torque stock than LS1s and 5.3s and that LS1 5.3 guys need to wake up and realize they are already becoming dated and should look at base V6 Camaro swaps in the near future. Progress is a b*tch at times.

Thanks again for your wealth of information lol. It seems like maybe an LS can make more power in the end, but at what cost?

 

[LukeZ]

It isn't about driving it in the rain, it proves that the LS motors are over built and can handle that much power without upgrading to a forged crank, rods, pistons, etc. That means the engine IS better because it is designed better.

I would hate to have to call my boss when its raining and say, "Sorry, I cant come to work today. My 1000hp El Camino doesn't handle in the rain" lmao. It is about driveability, just as it is as much about peak power on stock internals, and gas mileage, and weight, and cost, etc.
Apparently you value peak power with a stock bottom end more than anything else. I put gas mileage and hp gained at the lowest cost at the top. That's only my opinion though; doesn't mean that I am correct.

"Its better because it is designed better" lmao

 

[motorheadmike]

Do you have links to a couple stock bottom end LS engines making 1000rwhp like you imply?

And that doesn't make it better. What is the driveablility of a 1000wrhp motor? Have fun driving something like that in the rain.

Search: http://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-induction-9/

I guess he missed it by 8hp, but he was just farting around with junk:
http://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...0-c480-4l80e-ljms-st2-992whp-lifted-head.html

Turbo engines drive like stock, unless you did something wrong.

My AWD TBSS has about 550whp on the stock 165K mile engine (less an LS9 cam, cheap off the shelf pushrods, and some valvesprings) with a Procharger - my wife only commented on the stiff suspension as the change she noticed after she drove it - it used to be her daily. The truck ran 11.9 @ 116mph at 5100+lbs; that is enough power for mid-10s in a G-body - and there is still so much more in it.

As for the BS about the stock oiling system not being able to keep up? HA! I ported and shimmed the stock 165K mile oil pump and shoved it back in... the truck shifts at 6700rpm. Oh, and it completed Drag Week 2016 without an issue.

There is no comparison when some of these engines come from the factory with stock cylinder heads that flow like BBCs.

In my opinion the only reason anyone avoids going to an LS is because they are already financially engaged in SBC parts; I cut my losses and have sold most of my Gen I parts off and everything is LS'd here now. Next I want to build a turbo LFX V6.