Buick 350 into 83 Cutlass - 307 out

[techg8]

So after a little break from implementing the CCC on the Buick 350, I am going to give it another go.

Olds 307 CCC system 1986
72 non EGR Buick 350, stock

To summarize the previous results,
Everything ran fine EXCEPT I had lots of backfiring out the exhaust at part throttle.
Idle was great, tuned fine on the meter
WOT was great, no issues.

The lean cruise was the problem - lots of backfiring thru the exhaust.

The timing advanced really far at part throttle (due to the PROM for the swirl port engine) then became hard to determine as the backfiring occurred.

So going forward I am going to try to find a PROM chip that has less part throttle timing. Possibly an earlier Olds chip.

I will be putting a call in to maybe Jet and Hypertech to try to get some info on their chips and what might work.

Will post results

Anyone have a chip they think might work?

 

[techg8]

I got the CCC system installed in the 85 Cutlass again, with the SBB 350.

I have the same results as before - the part throttle backfiring out the exhaust, as expected.

I had a couple PROM chips around the house and tried them. One from a chevy 305 and another from the original Olds 231

In both cases the Check Engine Light popped immediately, and there was no action at the mixture solenoid.

Perhaps what I need is an earlier Olds chip from a 307.

I would hate to think that I would need to implement the whole CCC harness, sensors and ecm w/prom from an appropriate vehicle to fix the backfire.

I was acting under the assumption that all the prom chips contain similar data tables of fuel and timing, rpm, tps, map etc and thus would be transferrable.

 

[RegalBegal]

The lean cruise was the problem - lots of backfiring thru the exhaust.

I would say try a chip from a larger engine, like the 403 Olds in the 81 TA. Remember, the SBB 350 is a long stroke engine compared to other GM 350's.

 

[techg8]

Success!

After trying several chip implants into the 86 Olds 307 ECM, I decided that wasnt working. The swapped in chips immediately faulted the system and it just wasnt working.

I had a complete CCC harness and ECM from a Pontiac or Monte with 205

So I swapped it in, hooking up just the basics, ignoring the emissions connectors and trans, ac stuff.

The backfiring is all gone.

I need to clean up the harness some and trim the stuff I am not using, but it works.

The idle mix dwell is very rich but it responds to the mix screws and to throttle changes so some tuning will be in order.

But I am happy that I now have a CCC Buick 350. It will be fun to play with and see what it can do. Could it be the best of both worlds? Mileage and power? We will see.

 

[jetsetw31]

Sorry I wasn't following this. The swap I did I left out all the air pump controls and I never even changed the V6 CCC. No chip or anything like that. The '75 350 had EGR and I just used the sensors from the V6. I had to swap the distributor shafts and pick up coil, But that was it. I'm sorry you had such a time with this swap.
T

 

[techg8]

It makes sense that the Buick V6 CCCsetup works well with the SBB350, theyre almost the same engine.

The swirl port Olds 307 ecm and chip just had too much part throttle timing for my 72 non egr SBB 350. What took the longest time was working thru the possibilities and determining that that was the issue.

I did learn that the thought that one can just swap chips between setups to change timing etc is somewhat incorrect at least. Perhaps you can swap Olds 307 chip for olds 307 chip or chevy for chevy or something along that line. It certiainly did not work when I put the chevy chip in the Olds ecm, nor the Buick 6 chip in the Olds ECM. I had thought the data in the chips would be more generic than that.

Did you keep the knock sensor with the V6 setup? Ive got one on the 305 harness that I may try to keep.

 

[G_Body_Enthusiast]

i have a buick V6 and i still have the CCC stuff. how do i drop a buick 350 in and make the CCC system work with it? i could use a CCC qjet from a 4.1 but was there ever a CCC distributor for the SBB? or do you use a 3.8 distributor and put a V8 cap on it? is there a hole towards the back of the SBB for a knock sensor? if not then where does it go?

an article explaining all this would offer a nice alternative to ripping a buick V6 out and dropping a cookie cutter SBC in. i already have a SBC short block and a Cadillac 472 long block but retaining the CCC system but still upgrading to a V8 without it being a chevy would be cool. especially if it's a buick 350.

 

[techg8]

A tech article to summarize the job is a good idea. I will write one up with my results for MPG and track times.

I dont think there is a hole for the knock sensor. At least on my 1971 350 intake. However all it would require is drilling and tapping in some location with some meat to it. I am imagining one of the casting "ears" or enlarging some unused bolthole - If youre going non-ac, then the intake boss for the rear ac bracket would be both of these. I will try it there.

As for the distributor, you need to swap in the magnetic pickup from a V8 CCC distributor along with the V8 cap, but otherwise the V6 unit will swap right into the Buick 350

Mods to the CCC Qjet secondary side will be needed to get the most out of a 350. Primary side is not so much of a concern, the computer will take care of a lot.

 

[jetsetw31]

Did you keep the knock sensor with the V6 setup? Ive got one on the 305 harness that I may try to keep.

I disconnected the the knock sensor from the harness. The knock sensor was mainly there to keep the Even Fire V6 in line. The 305 had one because chevy was playing with higher compressions. Most G body V8s didn't need one. On my swap I used the carb connections, the distributer connections, the O2 sensor the MAP sensor, and the rest were disconnected at the ECM harness or plugged into dummy parts( the air pump plugs were separated zip tied to the harness by the AC to shut the Check Engine code down.)
The CCC is not really a good system. Its best features are the Idle mixture solenoid and the dwell control of the distributer. (When working properly) Both of which can be topped by a well tuned carb or manual advance on the distributer. The CCC was out dated by the mid to late 80s. It ran best with the 307, but the 307 was just as efficient without it. I personally am going towards multi point FI and either the Northstar's or the LS ignition system.
As for the CCC, I'm using it on my Cutlass with a Olds 350 swap. But my 350 has a cam in it and that's driving the CCC mad because it can't keep up. I just have the basic hook ups. My options are to change the cam or lose the CCC. I'm still thinking on that.
I hope this helps a bit.
T

 

[techg8]

Thanks for the info -

Here is an interesting tidbit that I just worked through.

Once I started tuning the SBB350 w/Olds carb on the Chevy CCC system, I noticed an Over Rich condition indicated by the dwell meter in closed loop operation. It couldnt be tned out of the idle and remained all through part throttle operation.

Eventually it popped a Code 45 Over Rich fault.

I went through the System performance tests and such, but EVERYTHING checked out. The system was operating correctly.

The last idea I had was to swap out the Olds E4ME for a Monte SS E4ME. That was the trick. The system tunes perfectly now at idle and through part throttle. Dwell readings as normal.

The chevy E4MEs have different calibration on the primary side than the Olds carbs. Long story made short is that they have (much) larger air bleeds and also have a decent amount of Idle Bypass Air (Olds E4ME has none), making it tend to run leaner, all other things the same.

This all is interesting because I have personally swapped out Olds and Chevy E4MEs on 5.0L engines with no problem whatsoever. They both tuned equally well and ran just fine regardless of ecm differences.

However in this case, The 350 was simply pulling too much fuel from the Olds carb to where it was over rich all the time. Keep in mind that this carb is a known-good unit that had been tested and run on a 5.0L AND tuned well on the 350 using an Olds 307 ECM

SO it HAS TO BE the calibration of the Chevy ECM that mismatched the Olds carb calibration, for this particular SBB350 application.

At any rate it has tuned nicely now, and I will be taking it for a spin a bit later. Hoping for good results.