CUTLASS Cutlass excessive cranking before cold start

[rfpowerdude]

I am not sure if this was mentioned. DualJets and QuadraJets have a aged leak problem at the staked fuel bowl bottoms. If the car sits for a day, it may start fine with a few pumps of the throttle. However, if it sits for a few days, the fuel bowl leaks down to empty and it takes a lot of cranking to get fuel back up to the carb since it all has now evaporated and the gas has drained back into the supply hose.

The fix is possibly epoxy on the staked plugs (pull carb and fix) or just keep this in mind when cranking.

 

[studer]

I am not sure if this was mentioned. DualJets and QuadraJets have a aged leak problem at the staked fuel bowl bottoms. If the car sits for a day, it may start fine with a few pumps of the throttle. However, if it sits for a few days, the fuel bowl leaks down to empty and it takes a lot of cranking to get fuel back up to the carb since it all has now evaporated and the gas has drained back into the supply hose.

The fix is possibly epoxy on the staked plugs (pull carb and fix) or just keep this in mind when cranking.

Thanks. I haven't had time to adjust or check my choke yet as some other stuff has been keeping me busy. But this is something I was thinking it may be. I have a clear plastic inline fuel filter spliced into the rubber fuel line in the engine bay, hopefully this will help me figure out how long it takes for new fuel from the tank to get to the carb during my cold start cranks. I'm hoping to be able to make some progress on this today or tomorrow lol.

 

[Rt Jam]

Some of issue is modern gas, it evaporates easier which empities the fuel bowl in as little as a day causing hard starts. Modern gasoline is not designed for carburetors like older gasolines were in the past.

This is a fact of vented carburetor bowls.

A couple ways to confirm. After the car sits for a couple of days. Remove air cleaner lid. Hold choke open. Floor the throttle linkage. Does it squirt a good solid stream of fuel from the accelerator nozzle?

Or take a squirt bottle with about 200mL of fuel. Fill the bowl by the vent. Now go see if it will start with one complete pedal pump.

 

[studer]

Only had about 15-20 minutes today to work on things. I put some markings on the choke before I adjusted it. I then rotated counter-clockwise and felt light spring tension. The choke's original position was basically at the end of the spring tension...so basically no tension. I did this while getting someone else to hold the throttle at around 50%. This was done with the vehicle off, ignition off, etc. You can see from the photos below that I moved it quite a bit. I tightened everything down and tried to start the vehicle. No change, same multiple-crank sequence needed to get the car running.

I then loosened the clutch while idling with no throttle engaged. Turned the choke back and forth to see if I could hear any difference in the idle, couldn't hear anything. So I rotated the choke back to its original position (left photo) and tightened everything back down.

As a side note, the vehicle seems to have now developed a permanent charge/battery light. Never had this issue before. I keep the battery on a 0.5 amp trickle charger most of the time cause the vehicle isn't driven much right now. Don't think that'll cause any issues. The only other work I've done since the last time the vehicle was started is (1) replaced the blower motor, which now works without squealing, (2) remove, clean, and replaced the fan speed adjustment switch, and (3) giving a few hammer taps to the blower motor relay on the side of the airbox where the motor is. Was having an issue where specifically the high fan speed wouldn't work and figured out it was probably the relay in the picture below, so I unmounted it, left it plugged in, gave it a few taps with a small trim hammer, and ta-da, my high fan speed worked again.

The only other thing that's weird is that I started the vehicle today without the airbox, vent tubes, etc. But I'm hoping that doesn't affect my charging system in any way, or else I clearly don't know anything about these vehicles. I checked the voltage on the battery when it was running and it read 12.45v to 12.43v, it didn't seem to be consistently decreasing. I do not know what the output voltage of these alternators is supposed to be...I assume 13.6v to 14.2v or something like that? I tried back-probing the largest red-wired connector on the rear of the alternator, and the other side of the multimeter went on the (-) post of my battery, and it also read the same ~12.45v. I don't think my alternator welt from perfectly fine to dead overnight, not driving it. So I assume there's some sort of relay or connection that's a bit messed up and isn't allowing the vehicle to charge from the alternator? Does anyone know the specific criteria for the charge/battery light to be on? Is it as simple as "if voltage under X, turn on light", or is there more to it?

My apologies, I know this question is a bit of a diversion from the original discussion in this thread, but I figured it's still in the electrical/ignition section of the forum so it may be nice not to flood the forum with new threads due to my own incompetence. Thanks for the help so far, everyone. I hope I have a bit more time tomorrow to review some past comments and figure out some more of these suggestions. I am starting to think that this is a case of the fuel just leaking back into the return as well as evaporating, especially with how there don't seem to be any issues with the vehicle while running and idling (aside from this new annoying charge/battery light).

 

[olds307 and 403]

What temperature were you working in? If at room temperature the choke will barely come on, like you are saying. If near or below freezing, it should have pretty good tension. It needs to completely close tight, isn't in that picture. Your carb will have a very lean calibration. Sounds like it may be bleeding back to the tank and or the fuel pump is getting weak. It may be the well plugs or even the needle and seat as mentioned as well. Our Winter formula of gas is more volatile, changes in October to allow better starting and running in -40. It may very well evaporate easier as well. No your alternator isn't charging. Is there a dash light on? If that little bulb burns out, it stops charging, pretty stupid, I know.

 

[Clone TIE Pilot]

Only had about 15-20 minutes today to work on things. I put some markings on the choke before I adjusted it. I then rotated counter-clockwise and felt light spring tension. The choke's original position was basically at the end of the spring tension...so basically no tension. I did this while getting someone else to hold the throttle at around 50%. This was done with the vehicle off, ignition off, etc. You can see from the photos below that I moved it quite a bit. I tightened everything down and tried to start the vehicle. No change, same multiple-crank sequence needed to get the car running.

View attachment 233149 View attachment 233150

I then loosened the clutch while idling with no throttle engaged. Turned the choke back and forth to see if I could hear any difference in the idle, couldn't hear anything. So I rotated the choke back to its original position (left photo) and tightened everything back down.

As a side note, the vehicle seems to have now developed a permanent charge/battery light. Never had this issue before. I keep the battery on a 0.5 amp trickle charger most of the time cause the vehicle isn't driven much right now. Don't think that'll cause any issues. The only other work I've done since the last time the vehicle was started is (1) replaced the blower motor, which now works without squealing, (2) remove, clean, and replaced the fan speed adjustment switch, and (3) giving a few hammer taps to the blower motor relay on the side of the airbox where the motor is. Was having an issue where specifically the high fan speed wouldn't work and figured out it was probably the relay in the picture below, so I unmounted it, left it plugged in, gave it a few taps with a small trim hammer, and ta-da, my high fan speed worked again.

View attachment 233151

The only other thing that's weird is that I started the vehicle today without the airbox, vent tubes, etc. But I'm hoping that doesn't affect my charging system in any way, or else I clearly don't know anything about these vehicles. I checked the voltage on the battery when it was running and it read 12.45v to 12.43v, it didn't seem to be consistently decreasing. I do not know what the output voltage of these alternators is supposed to be...I assume 13.6v to 14.2v or something like that? I tried back-probing the largest red-wired connector on the rear of the alternator, and the other side of the multimeter went on the (-) post of my battery, and it also read the same ~12.45v. I don't think my alternator welt from perfectly fine to dead overnight, not driving it. So I assume there's some sort of relay or connection that's a bit messed up and isn't allowing the vehicle to charge from the alternator? Does anyone know the specific criteria for the charge/battery light to be on? Is it as simple as "if voltage under X, turn on light", or is there more to it?

My apologies, I know this question is a bit of a diversion from the original discussion in this thread, but I figured it's still in the electrical/ignition section of the forum so it may be nice not to flood the forum with new threads due to my own incompetence. Thanks for the help so far, everyone. I hope I have a bit more time tomorrow to review some past comments and figure out some more of these suggestions. I am starting to think that this is a case of the fuel just leaking back into the return as well as evaporating, especially with how there don't seem to be any issues with the vehicle while running and idling (aside from this new annoying charge/battery light).

Rotating the electric choke adjusts the length of time its applied. CCW keeps the choke on longer, CW shortens the time the choke is on. The choke should be set with the fast idle cam on its highest step.

 

[studer]

What temperature were you working in? If at room temperature the choke will barely come on, like you are saying. If near or below freezing, it should have pretty good tension. It needs to completely close tight, isn't in that picture. Your carb will have a very lean calibration. Sounds like it may be bleeding back to the tank and or the fuel pump is getting weak. It may be the well plugs or even the needle and seat as mentioned as well. Our Winter formula of gas is more volatile, changes in October to allow better starting and running in -40. It may very well evaporate easier as well. No your alternator isn't charging. Is there a dash light on? If that little bulb burns out, it stops charging, pretty stupid, I know.

COLD START CRANKING ISSUE:
This would have been at warm room temperature, probably 20-22 C. I have some wood epoxy drying in the garage so I have the heater turned up quite a ways. I really think it's just the gas leaking back at this point. My reasons for thinking this are:

1. The car runs and idles fine once it starts, whether it's cold or not. I've started it in -10C and +30C. It's always hard to start if it hasn't run for a day or more, but once it starts, it runs and idles great.
2. Once the car has been started from cold, and left to idle for 10 seconds, I can shut off the car and restart it with one turn of the key, no problem. The car isn't actually "warm" after 10 second of idling, but there is fuel in the carb after starting and idling for 10 seconds.

So I have a proposed solution in mind and want to run it by this forum. Can I just install a low-pressure (pressure designed for carbs) inline electric fuel pump, close to the tank, and wire it to a momentary switch in the cab? What I'm thinking is either an Edelbrock 17301 (4-7 psi) or 17303 (2-3.5 psi). I would wire to a momentary switch in the cab so before I cold start the vehicle, I would hold the small button in the cab for 10-20 seconds, that fuel pump would run, and when I release the button, the electric fuel pump stops running. I then crank the engine to start normally and I ignore the electric fuel pump until I need to cold start it again. From my estimation, the big thing this relies on is the inline fuel pump not slowing or restricting fuel flow when it's not running. I would also throw in an Edelbrock 17311 filter just upstream of the inline fuel pump. This would somewhat negate the effect of the inline Wix 33003 fuel filter I have installed in the engine bay, but I guess it's fine to have some extra filtration. I also am not married to using Edelbrock, I don't really care what brand this proposed setup is, I'm just using them as an example.

NEW FUN ALTERNATOR ISSUE 🥳:
In terms of the alternator issue, yeah I did some research and it seems these alternators are supposed to be over 14v when running, so mine is not currently charging. The "CHARGE" light with the battery symbol is on as soon as I turn the key to IGN, and then stays on when the vehicle is running. This might sound stupid to ask about a car designed almost 50 years ago, but is there any kind of sensing technology or voltage regulation where something is telling the alternator not to produce charge if the battery is already full? I am 98% sure there's nothing like that on these cars, but I would feel dumb if there was something and I didn't consider it. I have been working on the car recently (new headlight assemblies, new blower motor, cleaning the fan speed selector switch, tapping the blower relay with a hammer), but none of these should be things that affect the alternator output. As well, starting the vehicle without the air filter box shouldn't affect anything as there are no electrical connections anywhere on it. The last time I started the car before yesterday, Jan 3rd, would have been Dec 31st when I installed the new headlights and switchbacks, to test them. The CHARGE light did not turn on then, and there was nothing out of the ordinary. It seems weird to me that an alternator would go bad just sitting in a heated garage.

 

[studer]

Rotating thevelectric choke adjusts the length of time its applied. CCW keeps the choke on longer, CW shortens the time the choke is on. The choke should be set with the faetbidle cam on its highest step.

Thank you for explaining this, I will have to adjust it the next time I actually have a cold temperature start, not just a "hasn't run in a few days" start.

 

[studer]

Ok so I did some more testing on the new alternator issue. Fired the car up again, measured the voltage. Around 12.3 to 12.4v so that tells me the issue I had yesterday is repeatable, and the alternator isn't putting out. Decided to try something stupid and give the alternator the ol' Jeremy Clarkson 1-2-3 with a small hammer and boom...14.5v measured across the battery. Checked the charge/battery light, and it's turned off. Wait 7-10 seconds, voltage drops to 13.1 to 13.3v, and then slowly decreases from there down to 12.5v, where I stopped measuring. Checked the charge/battery light and it's back on now. Gave the alternator some more hammer taps, again measured 14.5v across the battery and the charge/battery light turns off. And again, 7-10 seconds later, voltage drops and continues down into the 12.Xv range, charge/battery light is now on again.

So this tells me my alternator is technically capable of proper output. Does anyone who knows the inner workings of these alternators have an ELI5 explanation of what component this could be? If it's as simple as taking the alternator apart and replacing a small part, I can do that. I do live in Canada though, so parts coming in from the US are often prohibitively expensive once you factor in shipping and taxes/duties (like $50 to replace a $10-15 part, but $100 to just replace the whole alternator). I have some options for alternator replacements:

• Canadian Tire - reman Remy 20039 for $95 CAD plus $10 core plus tax.
• RockAuto - new ACDelco 3351093 for $138 CAD after tax and shipping.
• RockAuto - new Remy 91751 for $127 CAD after tax and shipping.
• NAPA - too expensive to bother, $160 to $200.

If something doesn't work, returning from Canada to RockAuto is prohibitively expensive, so my inclination is to just get that reman one from my local Canadian Tire if this isn't a simple fix.

 

[olds307 and 403]

Yeah, the inline pump on a toggle switch may fix the issue. You can just try and replace the voltage regulator in that alternator. The Remy reman are refurbished in Mexico. I got a 100 amp CS130 for my 88 Cutlass. It lasted a year, Canadian Tire couldn't find me replacement. They actually got me a 95 amp 12SI Wilson reman, it was POS, I should have taken it back. Wilson stuff used to be good. If you are planning any sort of stereo or other electrical upgrades, a 95 amp 12SI is a good idea. The 83 and up had the 12SI 95 amp as an option, will bolt right in place of your current alternator. You car probably has a 63 amp 10SI. They don't cool as well or last a long time when upgraded to higher amp output. Most aftermarket chrome alternators are based on the inferior 10SI case.