Fast EZ-Efi Fuel Return Hook-Up
- Thread starter hurst1979olds
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ok so here is another intensive read. i got lucky and got the same guy at comp again. asked every question i could possibly imagine
Gabe: Mark, how can I help you?
mark: oh more questions
mark: bet your gald to see me🙂
mark: we lost power at our shop yesterday when we were talking
Gabe: not a problem what other questions do you have?
mark: how well does the inline pump work in a non baffled tank?
mark: i dont want to run into starvation issues
Gabe: It works fine, once vent the tank....
Gabe: Once you vent the tank sorry...
mark: really?
mark: alot of people seem to be concerned with fuel sloshing around while driving and not getting adequate fuel
Gabe: Remember the pressure you are supplying is on the other side of the tank.
mark: as far as venting the tank goes can i get away with a vented cap or is something else requires
mark: ?
Gabe: You have to vent it... It needs to go as high on the tank as you can get it...
Gabe: The cap will not work
mark: really?
mark: huh we have a fellow member that ran his like than on a 455 olds motor and said that a fast rep said it would work
mark: whats the resoning
Gabe: It will, but venting it is recommended... It eliminates some variables. The vented cap is not the most efficient...
Gabe: It will vent different on different applications...
mark: how would i go about doing it otherwise? please explain in further detail if possible
Gabe: Needs to be vented, with EFI this is important as the fuel pump size goes up. With most EFI systems you have a return line returning almost as much fuel as what is going into the engine. You end up displacing air with the out going fuel and incoming fuel. The tank needs to breathe so you don't end up with tank vac or pressure. Tank vac will end up making it harder for the fuel pump to pump fuel to the front. Most older cars 70 and later don't have a good seal around the cap so it acts like a large vent but if your cap is air tight then you should have a vent equal to the return line size if possible.
Gabe:
Gabe: Usually people Run the tank sender vent to a filter like a small K&N type, loop the hose and zip tie it to keep the loop in place.
mark: oh
mark: yeah ill be putting this system on an 80 regal
mark: i can get an optional vented cap instead of the sealed one i currently have
mark: didnt know if that would have worked
mark: but its looking like one way or another i will be running a stretch of line, either for return or supply or vent? i was hoping to not run any real length of hose
Gabe: It really kinda depends on the application... They will hold pressure differently..
mark: oh so its like i may get away with it i may not?
Gabe: Right.. It is really application based.... You will just have to do a system check and see what pressure is looking like.
mark: oh i gotcha
mark: so back to the tank
mark: there is no issue of tank starvation with no baffles? because i have different options here as well. i can sump my factory tank or i can get the fuel tank out of a grand national or a tbi montecarlo with the sending unit. these tanks are bucketed and baffled for an in tank pump and also have 3 lines off the sender, (supply, return and vent)
Gabe: That would be a better choice, but we put this system on tanks without baffles all the time.... Remember that the pressure is made after the tank.... As long as it it coming out of the tank, you will get the pressure.
mark: oh ok
mark: but there are no issues with getting fuel to the pump if the pickup sock were to be exposed to air?
Gabe: No sir, like I said... The other tank would be an ideal set up, but you will not have issues with your tank.. with the system holding pressure like that, a baffleless tank will work.
mark: ok so lets talk the other tank
mark: what all is involved their
mark: there*
mark: http://www.gbodyparts.com/product_info. ... 6d4e37ada3
mark: that is the fuel pump/hanger i can get my hands on
Gabe: To be honest with you in that set up. Since it is already set up for an in tank pump. I would order the base kit without the pump, and use our intake set up, or another companies that will support the amount of fuel pressure you need, and call it a day...
mark: ?
mark: i would still need a pump and return line
Gabe: Yes sir... You can get our in tank pump kit then... Or another companies..... And drop it in the tank and go.... Here is the deal, if the tank is already in a car and you want to put it in as easy as possible.. GO with the Full master kit.... It will work with your tank... If you have acess to a tank that is already set up to drop an intank set up in and go. Go that route
mark: i would be looking at $448 for a brand new tank setup for an in tank pump and the sending unit with hanger etc. it would also give me new straps
mark: i may be able to cut $100 off somewhere
mark: but then i would be looking at kit 30447?
Gabe: yes sir. It does cost more, but if it is available it is an option as well, and is a little more efficient...
mark: can you give a con/benefit of the switch. also what is the difference in the kits besides the in tank pump
Gabe: The con is more money, and if you dont have the tank already in the vehicle, a lot of time!!!! the benefit is this is what fuel injection has pretty much been used with since its inception. It provides a better pressure, and the quality of the pump is better, as well as the life span.... the difference is just the fuel pump and fittings and lines for the pump..
mark: does it include lines int the 30447 kit
mark: im trying to figure out what all is needed for eother setup i were to go with
Gabe: What was your email again, i will send you the parts break down for this one as well
mark: [email protected]
mark: so lets see if i could not find a used factory tank i would be looking at like an additional $600 or so (fuel tank and sender +$200 or so addition between kit costs)
Gabe: Like I said, the only cons are money and time!!! Which are at a premium for me most of the time, so I would go with the in line. But If money wasnt an issue, and I had the tank and time.... I would go with the intank
mark: hmm see my mind is going crazy with ideas
mark: basically i havent driven the car in 6 years so i want to just make sure no matter which way i do it, i do it right
Gabe: I know, and I am not helping with giving you ideas!!! That walboro pump in the intank is pretty good.
mark: oh ok
mark: its a walbro huh
mark: well your not hurting me in anyway
mark: i like to gain as much info as humanly possible before i do anything
mark: is the inline pump loud?
Gabe: It has some noise, but when the car is running you really cant hear it. When the key is on and the engine isnt running, then you can though...
mark: oh ok
mark: i know some aftermarket pumps are crazy loud all the time
mark: ok now does the intank kit come with a power harness to the pump?
Gabe: The only time I hear it is when the car is not running.
Gabe: It is controlled from the fuel pump relay harness
mark: ok so both kits have the same harness
Gabe: Yes, the instructions that I gave you yesterday on live chat discuss wiring the relay
mark: oh ok cool
mark: does the inline setup come with the filter and still have 25' of hose?
mark: will see if it shows up in a min. so lets get the fuel thing wrapped up here. so either system will work, but the in tank will work better. so in theory i should go with it since it was a factory offered tank
Gabe: If money is not an option... Yes
mark: no matter what i have to drop the tank to modify my factory vent or plumb in a return on stock tank. or drop the tank and replace with fuel injection tank
mark: so time wise they are probably about the same for me im guessin
mark: so it comes down to the money and that is essentially it
mark: correct me if i am wrong
Gabe: And the time if you have to drop the tank and put in the new one...
mark: right but no matter what i have to drop the tank to either remove and modify my factory sender or to plum in a fitting in the top of the tank
mark: so in my application the tank has to be dropped regardless
Gabe: Then I say go for the intank
mark: so im guessing time isnt much to look at for my application. so its down to money. with the intank setup i would have a cooler running and longer living pump
mark: ok so if i had to purchase a replacement pump for either setup from you guys what would the cost run?
Gabe: If it is within a year, we warranty the pump for you... After that is that what you were asking?
mark: correct
mark: im looking at long term costs
mark: since the intank should last longer
Gabe: In line is 136.23 In tank is 154
mark: ok but theoretically the intank will last longer
mark: correct?
Gabe: Yes sir
mark: ok so now its whatever i decide on the fuel setup
mark: whats your price on the 30447
Gabe: 2150.00
mark: oh ok
mark: alright now onto another subject
mark: fan control
mark: my understanding is that the system can control fans with the use of a relay?
Gabe: Yes sir
mark: ok so my setup that i still need to install is twin 12" elec fans
mark: they draw 15amps -20 amps a piece
mark: i bought a derale adjustable fan thermostat and relay kit for it. would i be better off to use that or to keep everything self contained with the fuel injection
Gabe: that is going to be up to you. It can be done either way. The relay is not wired directly to the fan, The negative control side of the relay is used for powering the fan. Most people usually use an adjustable fan thermostat and relay kit instead of using ours..
mark: i just didnt know which one would work better
Gabe: Really it is preference. Probably more people go the thermostat route...
mark: oh ok
mark: i gotcha
mark: now as far as placement of the thermostat for the efi. i have 1 open head port, 1 port in the intake before the thermostat and 1 port in the waterneck
mark: i have full length headers so i get leary about pluming wired sendors around the pipes
Gabe: As long as they are not on the pipes, you should be ok..
mark: gotcha
mark: ok next question
mark: the handheld wizard
mark: i see it is powered via the cigarette lighter plug. is the wizard always required to be hooked up
Gabe: That is how it tunes... If it is not plugged up, the adaptive learning will not tune. It is really kind of pointless.....
mark: oh i see
mark: so is there a better way to wire it up versus plugging it into theligher plug
mark: my lighter plug comes right out of the front of my dash so it would be kind of unsightly
Gabe: When you are driving, you can take it off and throw it in glove box, but you really cant monitor anyting or know if you get a fault code.
mark: oh ok
Gabe: So it can work without it, but you cant see what the system is doing.
mark: i gess another option would be a hidden 12v plug
Gabe: That will work, just as long as it gets power.
mark: i gotcha
mark: i thought there was one more thing i needed to ask
mark: cant remember
mark: oh yeah. back to the fuel right quick, is there a higher pressure being put out by the in tank setup?
mark: or will those fittings we discussed yesterday still do the trick?
Gabe: Not any higher.... The fittings will still work..
mark: cool deal. and i believe this is my last question.
mark: the O2 sensor
mark: i see you recomend a minimum 21" from the head, but is there a prefered place to install?
mark: will it get an adequate reding from one bank or should it be installed in the xpipe to read off both banks?
Gabe: That is kind of a loose recommendation... I want as much pipe behind it as possible. One bank is fine. It will give you an accurate reading.... I tell people closer to the collector the better!
mark: so would it be a smart move to say put it in the reducer off the collector on the driverside bank? that way if i were to change headers i would still have the bung in the exhaust system?
Gabe: That will work.... Be sure that there is no way outside air can get in....
mark: so make sure the seal is perfect before the reducer or wopuld it be better to just go agead and throw in in the collector. if its in the collector you fight 1 gasket possibly leafing, if you put in reducer there is a chance of 2 gaskets before the sensor leaking
Gabe: You always some variable, but as long as it is not picking up any outside air you will be good
mark: right becuase outside air will give a false lean reading
Gabe: Correct.
mark: ok well cool
mark: now to make my mind up on what setup to use. i really appreciate your help. hell you been talking to me for like 4 hours over 2 days
Gabe: It was my pleasure.... Let me know if you need anything else!
mark: oh i will dont you worry
so in the end fuel pump kit wise it all comes down to money. we can get the tank and hanger and straps etc from brian at g body parts for $448 then we are looking are around $2000-$2100 for the fast in tank setup. so around $600 more. they both seem nice and he states they both work well. so it comes down to time and money. we have to drop the tank regardless of either setup so it comes down to money. make of it whatcha will.
Gabe: Mark, how can I help you?
mark: oh more questions
mark: bet your gald to see me🙂
mark: we lost power at our shop yesterday when we were talking
Gabe: not a problem what other questions do you have?
mark: how well does the inline pump work in a non baffled tank?
mark: i dont want to run into starvation issues
Gabe: It works fine, once vent the tank....
Gabe: Once you vent the tank sorry...
mark: really?
mark: alot of people seem to be concerned with fuel sloshing around while driving and not getting adequate fuel
Gabe: Remember the pressure you are supplying is on the other side of the tank.
mark: as far as venting the tank goes can i get away with a vented cap or is something else requires
mark: ?
Gabe: You have to vent it... It needs to go as high on the tank as you can get it...
Gabe: The cap will not work
mark: really?
mark: huh we have a fellow member that ran his like than on a 455 olds motor and said that a fast rep said it would work
mark: whats the resoning
Gabe: It will, but venting it is recommended... It eliminates some variables. The vented cap is not the most efficient...
Gabe: It will vent different on different applications...
mark: how would i go about doing it otherwise? please explain in further detail if possible
Gabe: Needs to be vented, with EFI this is important as the fuel pump size goes up. With most EFI systems you have a return line returning almost as much fuel as what is going into the engine. You end up displacing air with the out going fuel and incoming fuel. The tank needs to breathe so you don't end up with tank vac or pressure. Tank vac will end up making it harder for the fuel pump to pump fuel to the front. Most older cars 70 and later don't have a good seal around the cap so it acts like a large vent but if your cap is air tight then you should have a vent equal to the return line size if possible.
Gabe:
Gabe: Usually people Run the tank sender vent to a filter like a small K&N type, loop the hose and zip tie it to keep the loop in place.
mark: oh
mark: yeah ill be putting this system on an 80 regal
mark: i can get an optional vented cap instead of the sealed one i currently have
mark: didnt know if that would have worked
mark: but its looking like one way or another i will be running a stretch of line, either for return or supply or vent? i was hoping to not run any real length of hose
Gabe: It really kinda depends on the application... They will hold pressure differently..
mark: oh so its like i may get away with it i may not?
Gabe: Right.. It is really application based.... You will just have to do a system check and see what pressure is looking like.
mark: oh i gotcha
mark: so back to the tank
mark: there is no issue of tank starvation with no baffles? because i have different options here as well. i can sump my factory tank or i can get the fuel tank out of a grand national or a tbi montecarlo with the sending unit. these tanks are bucketed and baffled for an in tank pump and also have 3 lines off the sender, (supply, return and vent)
Gabe: That would be a better choice, but we put this system on tanks without baffles all the time.... Remember that the pressure is made after the tank.... As long as it it coming out of the tank, you will get the pressure.
mark: oh ok
mark: but there are no issues with getting fuel to the pump if the pickup sock were to be exposed to air?
Gabe: No sir, like I said... The other tank would be an ideal set up, but you will not have issues with your tank.. with the system holding pressure like that, a baffleless tank will work.
mark: ok so lets talk the other tank
mark: what all is involved their
mark: there*
mark: http://www.gbodyparts.com/product_info. ... 6d4e37ada3
mark: that is the fuel pump/hanger i can get my hands on
Gabe: To be honest with you in that set up. Since it is already set up for an in tank pump. I would order the base kit without the pump, and use our intake set up, or another companies that will support the amount of fuel pressure you need, and call it a day...
mark: ?
mark: i would still need a pump and return line
Gabe: Yes sir... You can get our in tank pump kit then... Or another companies..... And drop it in the tank and go.... Here is the deal, if the tank is already in a car and you want to put it in as easy as possible.. GO with the Full master kit.... It will work with your tank... If you have acess to a tank that is already set up to drop an intank set up in and go. Go that route
mark: i would be looking at $448 for a brand new tank setup for an in tank pump and the sending unit with hanger etc. it would also give me new straps
mark: i may be able to cut $100 off somewhere
mark: but then i would be looking at kit 30447?
Gabe: yes sir. It does cost more, but if it is available it is an option as well, and is a little more efficient...
mark: can you give a con/benefit of the switch. also what is the difference in the kits besides the in tank pump
Gabe: The con is more money, and if you dont have the tank already in the vehicle, a lot of time!!!! the benefit is this is what fuel injection has pretty much been used with since its inception. It provides a better pressure, and the quality of the pump is better, as well as the life span.... the difference is just the fuel pump and fittings and lines for the pump..
mark: does it include lines int the 30447 kit
mark: im trying to figure out what all is needed for eother setup i were to go with
Gabe: What was your email again, i will send you the parts break down for this one as well
mark: [email protected]
mark: so lets see if i could not find a used factory tank i would be looking at like an additional $600 or so (fuel tank and sender +$200 or so addition between kit costs)
Gabe: Like I said, the only cons are money and time!!! Which are at a premium for me most of the time, so I would go with the in line. But If money wasnt an issue, and I had the tank and time.... I would go with the intank
mark: hmm see my mind is going crazy with ideas
mark: basically i havent driven the car in 6 years so i want to just make sure no matter which way i do it, i do it right
Gabe: I know, and I am not helping with giving you ideas!!! That walboro pump in the intank is pretty good.
mark: oh ok
mark: its a walbro huh
mark: well your not hurting me in anyway
mark: i like to gain as much info as humanly possible before i do anything
mark: is the inline pump loud?
Gabe: It has some noise, but when the car is running you really cant hear it. When the key is on and the engine isnt running, then you can though...
mark: oh ok
mark: i know some aftermarket pumps are crazy loud all the time
mark: ok now does the intank kit come with a power harness to the pump?
Gabe: The only time I hear it is when the car is not running.
Gabe: It is controlled from the fuel pump relay harness
mark: ok so both kits have the same harness
Gabe: Yes, the instructions that I gave you yesterday on live chat discuss wiring the relay
mark: oh ok cool
mark: does the inline setup come with the filter and still have 25' of hose?
mark: will see if it shows up in a min. so lets get the fuel thing wrapped up here. so either system will work, but the in tank will work better. so in theory i should go with it since it was a factory offered tank
Gabe: If money is not an option... Yes
mark: no matter what i have to drop the tank to modify my factory vent or plumb in a return on stock tank. or drop the tank and replace with fuel injection tank
mark: so time wise they are probably about the same for me im guessin
mark: so it comes down to the money and that is essentially it
mark: correct me if i am wrong
Gabe: And the time if you have to drop the tank and put in the new one...
mark: right but no matter what i have to drop the tank to either remove and modify my factory sender or to plum in a fitting in the top of the tank
mark: so in my application the tank has to be dropped regardless
Gabe: Then I say go for the intank
mark: so im guessing time isnt much to look at for my application. so its down to money. with the intank setup i would have a cooler running and longer living pump
mark: ok so if i had to purchase a replacement pump for either setup from you guys what would the cost run?
Gabe: If it is within a year, we warranty the pump for you... After that is that what you were asking?
mark: correct
mark: im looking at long term costs
mark: since the intank should last longer
Gabe: In line is 136.23 In tank is 154
mark: ok but theoretically the intank will last longer
mark: correct?
Gabe: Yes sir
mark: ok so now its whatever i decide on the fuel setup
mark: whats your price on the 30447
Gabe: 2150.00
mark: oh ok
mark: alright now onto another subject
mark: fan control
mark: my understanding is that the system can control fans with the use of a relay?
Gabe: Yes sir
mark: ok so my setup that i still need to install is twin 12" elec fans
mark: they draw 15amps -20 amps a piece
mark: i bought a derale adjustable fan thermostat and relay kit for it. would i be better off to use that or to keep everything self contained with the fuel injection
Gabe: that is going to be up to you. It can be done either way. The relay is not wired directly to the fan, The negative control side of the relay is used for powering the fan. Most people usually use an adjustable fan thermostat and relay kit instead of using ours..
mark: i just didnt know which one would work better
Gabe: Really it is preference. Probably more people go the thermostat route...
mark: oh ok
mark: i gotcha
mark: now as far as placement of the thermostat for the efi. i have 1 open head port, 1 port in the intake before the thermostat and 1 port in the waterneck
mark: i have full length headers so i get leary about pluming wired sendors around the pipes
Gabe: As long as they are not on the pipes, you should be ok..
mark: gotcha
mark: ok next question
mark: the handheld wizard
mark: i see it is powered via the cigarette lighter plug. is the wizard always required to be hooked up
Gabe: That is how it tunes... If it is not plugged up, the adaptive learning will not tune. It is really kind of pointless.....
mark: oh i see
mark: so is there a better way to wire it up versus plugging it into theligher plug
mark: my lighter plug comes right out of the front of my dash so it would be kind of unsightly
Gabe: When you are driving, you can take it off and throw it in glove box, but you really cant monitor anyting or know if you get a fault code.
mark: oh ok
Gabe: So it can work without it, but you cant see what the system is doing.
mark: i gess another option would be a hidden 12v plug
Gabe: That will work, just as long as it gets power.
mark: i gotcha
mark: i thought there was one more thing i needed to ask
mark: cant remember
mark: oh yeah. back to the fuel right quick, is there a higher pressure being put out by the in tank setup?
mark: or will those fittings we discussed yesterday still do the trick?
Gabe: Not any higher.... The fittings will still work..
mark: cool deal. and i believe this is my last question.
mark: the O2 sensor
mark: i see you recomend a minimum 21" from the head, but is there a prefered place to install?
mark: will it get an adequate reding from one bank or should it be installed in the xpipe to read off both banks?
Gabe: That is kind of a loose recommendation... I want as much pipe behind it as possible. One bank is fine. It will give you an accurate reading.... I tell people closer to the collector the better!
mark: so would it be a smart move to say put it in the reducer off the collector on the driverside bank? that way if i were to change headers i would still have the bung in the exhaust system?
Gabe: That will work.... Be sure that there is no way outside air can get in....
mark: so make sure the seal is perfect before the reducer or wopuld it be better to just go agead and throw in in the collector. if its in the collector you fight 1 gasket possibly leafing, if you put in reducer there is a chance of 2 gaskets before the sensor leaking
Gabe: You always some variable, but as long as it is not picking up any outside air you will be good
mark: right becuase outside air will give a false lean reading
Gabe: Correct.
mark: ok well cool
mark: now to make my mind up on what setup to use. i really appreciate your help. hell you been talking to me for like 4 hours over 2 days
Gabe: It was my pleasure.... Let me know if you need anything else!
mark: oh i will dont you worry
so in the end fuel pump kit wise it all comes down to money. we can get the tank and hanger and straps etc from brian at g body parts for $448 then we are looking are around $2000-$2100 for the fast in tank setup. so around $600 more. they both seem nice and he states they both work well. so it comes down to time and money. we have to drop the tank regardless of either setup so it comes down to money. make of it whatcha will.
heres another tank option :
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/84-87-Bu ... 19c8af88e9
$129.99 free shipping
and the fuel sending unit is:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Spectra- ... 1c1d998315
$144
or
http://www.tanks-to-pans.com/site/823208/product/FG156A
$134
$273 total. any work on how these aftermarket setups fit and function? thats half the price of going through gbody parts
note: i dont know if brians tanks are factory tanks, aftermarket or goodmark. i notice he sells a goodmark tank on his sight as well. and also for everyone's info brian is a great guy to deal with.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/84-87-Bu ... 19c8af88e9
$129.99 free shipping
and the fuel sending unit is:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Spectra- ... 1c1d998315
$144
or
http://www.tanks-to-pans.com/site/823208/product/FG156A
$134
$273 total. any work on how these aftermarket setups fit and function? thats half the price of going through gbody parts
note: i dont know if brians tanks are factory tanks, aftermarket or goodmark. i notice he sells a goodmark tank on his sight as well. and also for everyone's info brian is a great guy to deal with.
$273 for a new baffled tank and new sending unit! Add in some inexpensive easy to work with aluminum fuel line for the return. If you need a pump www.racetronix.com click the Buick GN link. If you are useing a carberator get the Mallory 4309 return style fuel pressure regulator. You are done. Seems like a no brainer to me. Works oustanding, quiet, cold fuel, much safer, more reliable than most out of tank pumps. I used this for my 509 powered 442.
Def talkin efi not carb, but I get the drift.The ez kit comes with new in tank pump for that cost as well as the reg. Now as far as the tank, according to Brian at gbody parts we need rubber isolation tank straps. His fuel tank kit is new straps, sender, and tank but its around $450. So I'm stuck on that part
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