Safety in Ontario
- Thread starter Crd80BU
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The roadside vehicle safety inspections have been happening for years, and you're right, usually more so in the spring. Last weekend, the police were out on major highways for the long weekend, checking for unsafe trailers, loads etc. What concerns me more are the heightened inspections that are being done by the Ministry of the Environment, looking for disconnected or removed emission control devices. I'm hearing more and more stories about MOE officials checking cars at cruise nights, near car shows, near drag strips, and even just pulling people over at random when they're driving older or hobby type vehicles. The rule is that you must have the correct emission control devices for either the vehicle or the engine, whichever is the newer of the 2. I spoke to guy at a local car show last summer who drives a '32 Ford street rod. He got pulled over by the MOE north of Oshawa, and was escorted directly to a township garage, where they checked his car over thoroughly. The MOE guys have access to manufacturers casting and stamping numbers, and when they decoded the small block Chev in this guys '32 Ford, they were able to determine that it was originally installed in a 1985 Chev truck. They fined the owner for a number of missing emission devices, including EGR, EVAP canister system, and a couple of other items. As I understand it, the fine is approximately $370.00 PER ITEM which is either missing or disconnected. Crate engines are a grey area, and I've heard stories that you're required to have emission controls for the year that the crate engine was manufactured, although I'm not sure now they determine that, or enforce it. These laws are completely separate from Drive Clean legislation, and have been on the books since the '70s, when emission controls first came out. Its just that up until recently, they've been poorly enforced. Now that the government can see a source of revenue here, the laws are being more strictly enforced. Its getting to the point where you either need to have all of the correct emission controls for the vehicle you're driving, or drive a vehicle with the original engine which pre-dates these rules. Just my $0.02.
The other thing is, all the items say it happens anywhere anytime, but ive never heard of a story outside the GTA. Ive seen roadside inspections happen in Ottawa, but only for commercial vehicles, like U-haul trucks etc... Guess it needs to be strict in the smog areas.
Also right around the time they started doing this (one of the sources says 1998), shortly after they realized that the "hot rod" classification was a loophole to their system so it was abolished basically. It still exists, but you cannot classify a vehicle as a hot rod anymore unless you had it plated prior to 2001 or are able to prove it was fully built prior to 2001.
Hot rod is defined as a vehicle with an engine which was not originally offered in the car.
Also right around the time they started doing this (one of the sources says 1998), shortly after they realized that the "hot rod" classification was a loophole to their system so it was abolished basically. It still exists, but you cannot classify a vehicle as a hot rod anymore unless you had it plated prior to 2001 or are able to prove it was fully built prior to 2001.
Hot rod is defined as a vehicle with an engine which was not originally offered in the car.
The "hot rod" classification is something that pertains to Drive Clean only, not to the provincial legislation for having the correct emission controls. You need to have all of the correct original emission controls for either the chassis or the engine, whichever is the newer of the 2, regardless of the year that the car was built. The emission inspections are becoming more widespread. I've heard about them happening outside of the dragstrip at Cayuga, and as I said in this area, which is close to Lindsay Ont.
Good Ontario info in this thread, there was a blitz up in Peterborough last summer for 1 day thank god I wasn't on the road. I do have a safety but no cats since I put on the new exhaust also no carbon canister.. not sure if these 2 items are required. Anyone know where we can find the emissions needs for different g-bodies.
you need cats and the charcoal canister. I have been stopped 4 times so far by the environmental enforcement officers. I have vortec heads so I jb welded an EGR to my intake so it's there with the dummy vacuum line. They don't check to see if it's operational, it just has to be there. They question me about the air pump but I just say the car never came with it as far as I know. It's a $385 fine if you remove or tamper with device and they can tow your car if you have no cats.
They've done these roadside inspections in the London area.
Here is an email I got just yesterday that you guys should take the time to read and draw your own conclusion, then pass it on to your local friends and fellow car buddies
Subject: Enforcement Initiatives...VERY SERIOUS !!
I know this is a lot of reading guys , if you havn't been made aware of the recent Ministry initiatives , you need to be aware of whats happening , and more importantly , WRITE LETTERS !!! ,modified cars , i-e Street-Rods //Hot rods , Street-machines etc are in very real danger of being legislated OFF THE ROAD !! by "new" environmental regulations that don't recognize/exempt cars already built . Please pay attention ,and act , you can't "assume" somebody else will do it !! ,, Jim Prowse
Thanks Allan:
Very timely indeed. Interesting that the British stats pretty much follow those of Ontario's own MOE - namely showing approximately only one half of one percent of the total road-licenced vehicles are involved.
I'll pass this along to our friends at SVAO.
Hi Dean,
This is timely (perhaps something to mention at the next MOE meeting) - http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2012 ... refer=news
Vintage Car Connection
www.vintagecarconnection.com
"British officials announced on Monday that cars built before 1960 will no longer be subject to the nationwide safety and emissions test known as the MoT. While owners of older cars can voluntarily submit their cars to the test, passing is no longer required. Transport minister Mike Penning explained the decision: “Owners of classic cars and motorbikes tend to be enthusiasts who maintain their vehicles well. They don’t need to be told to look after them, they’re out there in all weathers checking the condition of the engine, tires and bodywork.” The change, which takes effect in November, is part of the government’s announced campaign to reduce regulations wherever possible.
There’s been a range of reactions to the announcement. Some enthusiasts are delighted, of course, but others are appalled at the idea. The Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs conducted an online survey, which found that 74 percent of the more than 4,000 respondents wanted regulations on older cars relaxed, and that 55 percent would have their cars tested anyway. The Department of Transport noted a couple of facts in support of its decision:
* Pre-1960 licensed vehicles make up about 0.6 percent of the total number of licensed vehicles in Great Britain, but are involved in just 0.03 percent of road casualties and accidents.
* Evidence shows that the initial MoT test failure rate declines by the age of vehicle after the vehicle is 13 years old.
In the United States, of course, the regulatory picture is not so simple. Though the federal government dictates what kind of equipment our cars must have, it’s the individual states that determine whether to do safety inspections, and which items to inspect. (And it is maddeningly inconsistent – if the airbag light on my daily-driver Saab is on, Massachusetts considers my car unsafe. But my Spitfire, which never, ever had airbags of any kind? Eh, it’s safe enough. But I digress.)"
On Wed 23/05/12 2:27 AM , Dean Renwick [email protected] sent:
Attention: Mary Jo Depelsmaker, Publisher
Old Autos Publications Inc.
I read with interest and shared concern the letter from Erwin Nulle of Burlington, Ontario in the May 21st, 2012 issue of Old Autos on the subject of increased enforcement of vehicle emissions and component compliance. In fact, it is the Ontario Ministry of the Environment (MOE) that is responsible for emissions/component inspections through its Compliance Branch, and not the MTO as Mr. Nulle states. The OPP, and the Ministry of Transportation (MTO) could be teamed with MOE in roadside inspection programs throughout Ontario this coming summer. The OPP could have a mandate to check driver licencing and insurance issues, MTO checking vehicle safety issues, and MOE checking for emissions and emissions component compliance.
I first became aware of MOE's random vehicle roadside inspections in August of 2011. These inspections reportedly required the the vehicle owner/drivers to prove the year of manufacture of the engine in their vehicle, as well as the year it was installed in the vehicle. Feeling this was unfair to hobbyists I wrote to Mr. Andy Dominski, Director of the MOE Sector Compliance Branch on September 20, 2011 and received a response from Mr. Dominski requesting P.A.V.E. attend a meeting with he and his staff to discuss the issues P.A.V.E. felt were of concern to hobbyists.
At the time of this writing P.A.V.E. has had two meetings with MOE Compliance Branch staff. Additionally, P.A.V.E. has joined forces with the Specialty Vehicle Association of Ontario (SVAO) to counter this initiative that we believe will truly have a negative effect on our hobby. A meeting of P.A.V.E. and SVAO Directors was held in the new Etobicoke, Ontario premises of Performance Improvements Inc. on May 16th, 2012. It was felt by everyone attending that meeting the most effective response to the MOE Compliance Branch initiatives would be a letter writing campaign to MPPs. Letters should stress the fact these environmental enforcement initiatives and MOE resources are being directed to less than one half of one percent of the vehicles registered for use on Ontario's roads. And further, that one half of one percent are only on the road for about one half of each and every year!
Concerned hobbyists, cruise night hosts, and autoshow promoters are encouraged to write directly to their individual MPPs on this issue. I've enclosed a copy of the letter I wrote to my own MPP - The Honourable Laurel Broten who represents my Etobicoke South riding.
D. DEAN RENWICK
President & CEO
Professional Association of Vehicle Evaluators Inc. (P.A.V.E.)
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Aggressive MOE Enforcement Initiatives...
Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 16:15:56 -0400
Dear Honourable Minister Broten:
As President & CEO of the Professional Association of Vehicle Evaluators Inc. (P.A.V.E.) I attended a meeting on May 16, 2012 along with representatives from the Specialty Vehicle Association of Ontario (SVAO), a major Etobicoke-based performance auto parts retailer, a Toronto Police Services officer, and two former Ministry of Transporation officers, among others. The meeting was held to address the concerns of the collector vehicle hobby for the most recent initiatives of the MOE Compliance Branch.
The SVAO has a long history of dedication to serving the needs of both the collector vehicle community and various provincial enforcement branches by working together for the common good of both groups. SVAO has worked hard to assure and prove the "Special Interest Vehicle" segment of the total registered vehicles in the province was a minute element comprising less than one half of one percent of the registered vehicles. Even if the total "Special Interest Vehicle" segment were somehow legislated out of existence overnight, it would not change the air quality in any measurable form, but would have a resounding negative impact to Ontario business. SVAO was given previous government assurances the "Special Interest Vehicle" segment was not a "target" and would not be impacted in any negative manner.
That having been said, the current Compliance Branch of the Ministry of Environment has recently seen fit to make a greater impact when it comes to the creation of newsworthy items and ticket-counts by seasonally attacking the special interest vehicle owners and a very disturbing program is now close to becoming cast in stone. In Ontario, the period between April and October is the peak time for special interest vehicles to be on the road. Statistics produced by the MOE indicate they have stopped many special interest vehicles annually and have found approximately 60% to be in some form of non-compliance. Remember - that's 60% of 1/2 of 1% of the total vehicles on Ontario's roads!!
Additionally, it's reported the MOE Compliance Officers are issuing multiple Provincial Offense Notices to owner/drivers of special interst vehicles. SVAO interviews with some recipients of offense notices show they felt they had no alternative but to pay the fines because to fight the charge(s) they must take time off work which costs more than the fine itself, even with a successful outcome after having the case heard in court.
Both SVAO and P.A.V.E. realize the Compliance Branch has a job to do, but it is also our opinion the Compliance Branch has set its own mandate in dealing with special interest vehicle emissions/component inspections. The question must tbe asked if the Compliance Branch is making itself "look good" to its employer (MOE) by using a questionable but positive conviction record to prove they are worthy of their job and yet at the same time actually accomplishing nothing to improve the real issue which is the improvement of air quality in Ontario.
The period of time from Spring to Fall in Ontario is short, and for the most part the special interest vehicles we speak of operate only on the weekends when actual traffic volume is at its lowest. And with only one half of one percent of Ontario's vehicle count being operated so infrequently (statistics show approximately 600 miles per year), what logic enables MOE to condone such activity on the part of its Enforcement Branch?
Currently, MOE's Enforcement Branch is creating an enforcement package that will clearly impact negatively on the owners of special interest vehicles, and it is the opinion of both SVAO and P.A.V.E. this could be the straw that breaks the back of the collector car hobby in Ontario, to say nothing of the estimated $900,000,000.00 (that's NINE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS) annual spin off industry and charitable fund raising activity that also gets negatively impacted in the name of "Saving the Environment" - but with no actual measurable benefit accruing for the environment.
As you are my local Etobicoke South MPP, I urge you to review these draconian-appearing enforcement measures at your earliest opportunity. As always, I'd be pleased to meet with you and discuss my own concerns as well as the concerns of SVAO and the hobby members.
Should you wish to view my credentials you may visit P.A.V.E.'s website at www.trustpave.com Should you wish to contact me directly you can reach me with my personal e-mail at [email protected] or by 'phone in my office at 416-252-3983.
Thank you in advance for reviewing this matter.
Yours truly,
D. DEAN RENWICK
President & CEO
Here is an email I got just yesterday that you guys should take the time to read and draw your own conclusion, then pass it on to your local friends and fellow car buddies
Subject: Enforcement Initiatives...VERY SERIOUS !!
I know this is a lot of reading guys , if you havn't been made aware of the recent Ministry initiatives , you need to be aware of whats happening , and more importantly , WRITE LETTERS !!! ,modified cars , i-e Street-Rods //Hot rods , Street-machines etc are in very real danger of being legislated OFF THE ROAD !! by "new" environmental regulations that don't recognize/exempt cars already built . Please pay attention ,and act , you can't "assume" somebody else will do it !! ,, Jim Prowse
Thanks Allan:
Very timely indeed. Interesting that the British stats pretty much follow those of Ontario's own MOE - namely showing approximately only one half of one percent of the total road-licenced vehicles are involved.
I'll pass this along to our friends at SVAO.
Hi Dean,
This is timely (perhaps something to mention at the next MOE meeting) - http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2012 ... refer=news
Vintage Car Connection
www.vintagecarconnection.com
"British officials announced on Monday that cars built before 1960 will no longer be subject to the nationwide safety and emissions test known as the MoT. While owners of older cars can voluntarily submit their cars to the test, passing is no longer required. Transport minister Mike Penning explained the decision: “Owners of classic cars and motorbikes tend to be enthusiasts who maintain their vehicles well. They don’t need to be told to look after them, they’re out there in all weathers checking the condition of the engine, tires and bodywork.” The change, which takes effect in November, is part of the government’s announced campaign to reduce regulations wherever possible.
There’s been a range of reactions to the announcement. Some enthusiasts are delighted, of course, but others are appalled at the idea. The Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs conducted an online survey, which found that 74 percent of the more than 4,000 respondents wanted regulations on older cars relaxed, and that 55 percent would have their cars tested anyway. The Department of Transport noted a couple of facts in support of its decision:
* Pre-1960 licensed vehicles make up about 0.6 percent of the total number of licensed vehicles in Great Britain, but are involved in just 0.03 percent of road casualties and accidents.
* Evidence shows that the initial MoT test failure rate declines by the age of vehicle after the vehicle is 13 years old.
In the United States, of course, the regulatory picture is not so simple. Though the federal government dictates what kind of equipment our cars must have, it’s the individual states that determine whether to do safety inspections, and which items to inspect. (And it is maddeningly inconsistent – if the airbag light on my daily-driver Saab is on, Massachusetts considers my car unsafe. But my Spitfire, which never, ever had airbags of any kind? Eh, it’s safe enough. But I digress.)"
On Wed 23/05/12 2:27 AM , Dean Renwick [email protected] sent:
Attention: Mary Jo Depelsmaker, Publisher
Old Autos Publications Inc.
I read with interest and shared concern the letter from Erwin Nulle of Burlington, Ontario in the May 21st, 2012 issue of Old Autos on the subject of increased enforcement of vehicle emissions and component compliance. In fact, it is the Ontario Ministry of the Environment (MOE) that is responsible for emissions/component inspections through its Compliance Branch, and not the MTO as Mr. Nulle states. The OPP, and the Ministry of Transportation (MTO) could be teamed with MOE in roadside inspection programs throughout Ontario this coming summer. The OPP could have a mandate to check driver licencing and insurance issues, MTO checking vehicle safety issues, and MOE checking for emissions and emissions component compliance.
I first became aware of MOE's random vehicle roadside inspections in August of 2011. These inspections reportedly required the the vehicle owner/drivers to prove the year of manufacture of the engine in their vehicle, as well as the year it was installed in the vehicle. Feeling this was unfair to hobbyists I wrote to Mr. Andy Dominski, Director of the MOE Sector Compliance Branch on September 20, 2011 and received a response from Mr. Dominski requesting P.A.V.E. attend a meeting with he and his staff to discuss the issues P.A.V.E. felt were of concern to hobbyists.
At the time of this writing P.A.V.E. has had two meetings with MOE Compliance Branch staff. Additionally, P.A.V.E. has joined forces with the Specialty Vehicle Association of Ontario (SVAO) to counter this initiative that we believe will truly have a negative effect on our hobby. A meeting of P.A.V.E. and SVAO Directors was held in the new Etobicoke, Ontario premises of Performance Improvements Inc. on May 16th, 2012. It was felt by everyone attending that meeting the most effective response to the MOE Compliance Branch initiatives would be a letter writing campaign to MPPs. Letters should stress the fact these environmental enforcement initiatives and MOE resources are being directed to less than one half of one percent of the vehicles registered for use on Ontario's roads. And further, that one half of one percent are only on the road for about one half of each and every year!
Concerned hobbyists, cruise night hosts, and autoshow promoters are encouraged to write directly to their individual MPPs on this issue. I've enclosed a copy of the letter I wrote to my own MPP - The Honourable Laurel Broten who represents my Etobicoke South riding.
D. DEAN RENWICK
President & CEO
Professional Association of Vehicle Evaluators Inc. (P.A.V.E.)
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Aggressive MOE Enforcement Initiatives...
Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 16:15:56 -0400
Dear Honourable Minister Broten:
As President & CEO of the Professional Association of Vehicle Evaluators Inc. (P.A.V.E.) I attended a meeting on May 16, 2012 along with representatives from the Specialty Vehicle Association of Ontario (SVAO), a major Etobicoke-based performance auto parts retailer, a Toronto Police Services officer, and two former Ministry of Transporation officers, among others. The meeting was held to address the concerns of the collector vehicle hobby for the most recent initiatives of the MOE Compliance Branch.
The SVAO has a long history of dedication to serving the needs of both the collector vehicle community and various provincial enforcement branches by working together for the common good of both groups. SVAO has worked hard to assure and prove the "Special Interest Vehicle" segment of the total registered vehicles in the province was a minute element comprising less than one half of one percent of the registered vehicles. Even if the total "Special Interest Vehicle" segment were somehow legislated out of existence overnight, it would not change the air quality in any measurable form, but would have a resounding negative impact to Ontario business. SVAO was given previous government assurances the "Special Interest Vehicle" segment was not a "target" and would not be impacted in any negative manner.
That having been said, the current Compliance Branch of the Ministry of Environment has recently seen fit to make a greater impact when it comes to the creation of newsworthy items and ticket-counts by seasonally attacking the special interest vehicle owners and a very disturbing program is now close to becoming cast in stone. In Ontario, the period between April and October is the peak time for special interest vehicles to be on the road. Statistics produced by the MOE indicate they have stopped many special interest vehicles annually and have found approximately 60% to be in some form of non-compliance. Remember - that's 60% of 1/2 of 1% of the total vehicles on Ontario's roads!!
Additionally, it's reported the MOE Compliance Officers are issuing multiple Provincial Offense Notices to owner/drivers of special interst vehicles. SVAO interviews with some recipients of offense notices show they felt they had no alternative but to pay the fines because to fight the charge(s) they must take time off work which costs more than the fine itself, even with a successful outcome after having the case heard in court.
Both SVAO and P.A.V.E. realize the Compliance Branch has a job to do, but it is also our opinion the Compliance Branch has set its own mandate in dealing with special interest vehicle emissions/component inspections. The question must tbe asked if the Compliance Branch is making itself "look good" to its employer (MOE) by using a questionable but positive conviction record to prove they are worthy of their job and yet at the same time actually accomplishing nothing to improve the real issue which is the improvement of air quality in Ontario.
The period of time from Spring to Fall in Ontario is short, and for the most part the special interest vehicles we speak of operate only on the weekends when actual traffic volume is at its lowest. And with only one half of one percent of Ontario's vehicle count being operated so infrequently (statistics show approximately 600 miles per year), what logic enables MOE to condone such activity on the part of its Enforcement Branch?
Currently, MOE's Enforcement Branch is creating an enforcement package that will clearly impact negatively on the owners of special interest vehicles, and it is the opinion of both SVAO and P.A.V.E. this could be the straw that breaks the back of the collector car hobby in Ontario, to say nothing of the estimated $900,000,000.00 (that's NINE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS) annual spin off industry and charitable fund raising activity that also gets negatively impacted in the name of "Saving the Environment" - but with no actual measurable benefit accruing for the environment.
As you are my local Etobicoke South MPP, I urge you to review these draconian-appearing enforcement measures at your earliest opportunity. As always, I'd be pleased to meet with you and discuss my own concerns as well as the concerns of SVAO and the hobby members.
Should you wish to view my credentials you may visit P.A.V.E.'s website at www.trustpave.com Should you wish to contact me directly you can reach me with my personal e-mail at [email protected] or by 'phone in my office at 416-252-3983.
Thank you in advance for reviewing this matter.
Yours truly,
D. DEAN RENWICK
President & CEO
Buick Estate, thanks very much for your post. I had read the letter in Old Autos, but I didn't realize that there is already some activity to respond to this situation. Thanks again.
clean8485 said:
As far as I was told after being pulled over 2 years, they go by vehicle.. not motor. My motor was older then my car, but because the car is an 85 I needed emissions control (EVAP etc.) So how do they justify pulling over a 32' ford and then go by it's motor? it's all money grabbing.. I can guarantee any one of our/those classics burn cleaner then little Joey and his 95 civic with rotting fenders and hacked exhaust...
I know with me the year will tell them the emissions standards, what ever they are is what you need.
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